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cyberhub

224 posts

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  #1263797 20-Mar-2015 07:43
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mattwnz: I can't see Auckland house prices increasing 10% a year, as they are already overprices. There is going to be a correction at some stage, although probably won't be until interest rates  rise, as cheap credit and lack of supply that is fueling it. In Wellington since the GFC prices have been relatively static, so they don't always go up. But even if houses prices do go up, so will everyones, so proportionally you will be paying around the same in rates + a percentage a year, unless proportionally yours rise by more. They shouldn't however be going up by more than inflation. That is possibly why some people are paying a lot more now, because proportionally their house value has gone up more than others. But as rates are a wealth tax now, that is a cost of living in an expensive house and area.


Sure, I have made the Auckland Rates Increase Calculator so you can choose what you think the house price increase will be.  So please give it a try with the figures that you think are correct.  Either way the rates price increase over time is incredible.






trig42
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  #1263856 20-Mar-2015 09:58
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Dan,

Your spreadsheet is downright scaremongering, and wildly inaccurate. You are attempting to pull the wool and I am a little concerned that some people will simply believe you are correct.

My understanding is that Rates are part Uniform charge (currently $373ish), part Waste charge (on my bill $242.40) and the rest a factor of the CV of your property.
CV is not the same as value IMO.

When I say the value of my house is increasing, I am not talking about the CV - Luckily, the council doesn't get RVs done on every property (when was the last time a house on Waiheke sold at or below CV? Our CV this year is $480000, and will stay at that for 3 years (before Council do another general revaluation). We have had a couple of estate agents informally value our house at $550-600k (I know, these are probably slightly high, they want you to list with them after all, but not stupidly high from what I have seen others sell for). At the moment (and it won't last), our sell price is increasing by more than our CV, which is what I mean by coming out ahead of the rates increases.

Before you get people to go and use the calculator on your website, please get it fixed. Find out what the percentage is for the General charge (at the moment 0.322%), add it to the fixed uniform charge and the Waste Management charge ($242.40 in my case), and apply that to the CV, which may increase 20-30% over three years (in fact, I just checked - my CV has gone from 400000 to 480000 in three years (20% over three years), and the rates I mentioned of $1884 is based on the $400000 value, so sorry if that was misleading), but doesn't change year on year.

I have redone your spreadsheet (which I can email to you if you PM me an email address) and by my new calculations, my rates in 10 years will be $5110pa, which while still too high, is much lass scaremongering than your original flawed model. I have calculated based on a 20% increase in CV after 3 years, with the same General rate% and UAC and Waste charge as now (they will go up I assume, but for arguments sake, we keep them constant). I factored in a compounding 5% increase in overall rates per year.

I want to know what an independent Waiheke Council would levy in rates? Would it be a Otorohanga levels? Or higher, given that services cannot drive there (rubbish, roads, anything else)? I still maintain that you and your merry bunch are on the green stuff if you think Waiheke can be run for $20m a year. A few years ago another person was advocating breaking from Auckland and amalgamating with the TCDC (Thames Coromandel District Council). He was a nutbar, but at least not so much of a nutbar as to believe Waiheke could go it alone.

cyberhub

224 posts

Master Geek


  #1263882 20-Mar-2015 10:31
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trig42: Dan,

Your spreadsheet is downright scaremongering, and wildly inaccurate. You are attempting to pull the wool and I am a little concerned that some people will simply believe you are correct.

My understanding is that Rates are part Uniform charge (currently $373ish), part Waste charge (on my bill $242.40) and the rest a factor of the CV of your property.
CV is not the same as value IMO.

When I say the value of my house is increasing, I am not talking about the CV - Luckily, the council doesn't get RVs done on every property (when was the last time a house on Waiheke sold at or below CV? Our CV this year is $480000, and will stay at that for 3 years (before Council do another general revaluation). We have had a couple of estate agents informally value our house at $550-600k (I know, these are probably slightly high, they want you to list with them after all, but not stupidly high from what I have seen others sell for). At the moment (and it won't last), our sell price is increasing by more than our CV, which is what I mean by coming out ahead of the rates increases.

Before you get people to go and use the calculator on your website, please get it fixed. Find out what the percentage is for the General charge (at the moment 0.322%), add it to the fixed uniform charge and the Waste Management charge ($242.40 in my case), and apply that to the CV, which may increase 20-30% over three years (in fact, I just checked - my CV has gone from 400000 to 480000 in three years (20% over three years), and the rates I mentioned of $1884 is based on the $400000 value, so sorry if that was misleading), but doesn't change year on year.

I have redone your spreadsheet (which I can email to you if you PM me an email address) and by my new calculations, my rates in 10 years will be $5110pa, which while still too high, is much lass scaremongering than your original flawed model. I have calculated based on a 20% increase in CV after 3 years, with the same General rate% and UAC and Waste charge as now (they will go up I assume, but for arguments sake, we keep them constant). I factored in a compounding 5% increase in overall rates per year.

I want to know what an independent Waiheke Council would levy in rates? Would it be a Otorohanga levels? Or higher, given that services cannot drive there (rubbish, roads, anything else)? I still maintain that you and your merry bunch are on the green stuff if you think Waiheke can be run for $20m a year. A few years ago another person was advocating breaking from Auckland and amalgamating with the TCDC (Thames Coromandel District Council). He was a nutbar, but at least not so much of a nutbar as to believe Waiheke could go it alone.


Hi Trig42,
I have pm'd you to get your updated Excel spreadsheet.  Yes I understand that CV are done every three years, but I have to admit that my Excel spreadsheet skills are not at a level where I could calculate that.  On the Our Waiheke website it does state that it is an estimate based on what we currently know. 

Trig42 I disagree, I don't think this is scaremongering.  What I have attempted to do is give people a figure close to what people are going to be charged by Auckland Council.  If you read the 10 year plan Auckland Council state 3.5%, you read it in detail, you find out that is the overall increase and the residential increase is 5.6%, keep reading and you find out that this is compounding yearly and based on the value of the property.

In real terms the calculator gives a real figure close to what is going to be charged.  After you did the updates were you shocked how much more you were going to be charged $5110? That is nearly $100 per week for the privledge of staying in your own property.  I am only taking a guess here but are you planning on retiring in that house?  If so are you going to be able to afford that or will your be forced to sell it and move to your Napier house?  Now think about all those baby boomers which are on fixed incomes when they retire. 






trig42
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  #1263908 20-Mar-2015 11:07
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Of course I think it is exorbitant. But I also think that it will be the same everywhere.
I actually think Auckland Rates are too low at the moment (compared to other smaller cities), and there is a correction happening. $5100 is too much (at the moment, who knows how I'll feel in 10 years) to be paying in Rates, and I think increases should be tied to inflation. Our Napier house has also had similar rates increases (and will probably continue to do so, so it's not just an Auckland thing).

I do not see how de-amalgamating from the countries biggest city is going to bring any cost savings. Ever. It will bring immediate and substantial cost increases. I cannot see where the idea ever stacks up.

PM sent.

cr250bromo
222 posts

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  #1263943 20-Mar-2015 11:28
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I grew up on Waiheke from 1983 till 1995.  When I first moved there rubbish collection was once per month, footpaths were pratically non existant other than in Oneroa and the roads were terrible - lethal for pedestrians and not much better for vehicles.  Many roads weren't even signposted so unless you were a local you had no real idea where you were.  Only the main route from matiatia to onetangi and rocky bay and a handful of other roads were tarsealed.  I saw a huge amount of work in this area when the amalgamation happened.

How many people calling for Waiheke to go it alone have experience of those days?  Amalgamation with Auckland City Council had some pain but overall I think it was good for Waiheke.

When I lived there Waiheke was considered a place for alternative hippies to move to, I might as well have said to some people I lived in Otara with the sort of bias they had against Waihekeians.  Could the real problem be that the island has been gentrified and is now a playground for the more well off?  Rates are based on property value and values on Waiheke have shot up over the years.  When I first moved there we got a 3 bedroom furnished house across the road from Onetangi beach for $45/week

/ben

*edit - included rent cost 

trig42
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  #1263971 20-Mar-2015 11:48
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portunus: I grew up on Waiheke from 1983 till 1995.  When I first moved there rubbish collection was once per month, footpaths were pratically non existant other than in Oneroa and the roads were terrible - lethal for pedestrians and not much better for vehicles.  Many roads weren't even signposted so unless you were a local you had no real idea where you were.  Only the main route from matiatia to onetangi and rocky bay and a handful of other roads were tarsealed.  I saw a huge amount of work in this area when the amalgamation happened.

How many people calling for Waiheke to go it alone have experience of those days?  Amalgamation with Auckland City Council had some pain but overall I think it was good for Waiheke.

When I lived there Waiheke was considered a place for alternative hippies to move to, I might as well have said to some people I lived in Otara with the sort of bias they had against Waihekeians.  Could the real problem be that the island has been gentrified and is now a playground for the more well off?  Rates are based on property value and values on Waiheke have shot up over the years.  When I first moved there we got a 3 bedroom furnished house across the road from Onetangi beach for $45/week

/ben

*edit - included rent cost 


It was even worse than that when we moved there (there were few, if any, streetlights for example). But if only I could go back in time and snap up some of those properties.

The biggest change that I can remember on Waiheke (and what started the property boom IMO) was the introduction of the Quickcat in 1988. I vividly remember my first trip on it - revelation. In the early 80s, you could buy a beachfront property there for well under $100k, if the bank would lend you money (Pretty hard to get money from a bank for a property on Waiheke back then). The poor old Quickcat is still plowing her way to and fro every day - showing her age now.

mattwnz
20141 posts

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  #1264048 20-Mar-2015 14:15
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I think is some ways it is good to centralise the council away from the area it is looking after. Otherwise there is the possibility of getting cosy relationships between local people and providers and council, including developers. You can also get developers who become councilors to push their cause. It is all about money and power. Local councils do have a significant amount of power. I don;t think the average rates for Waiheke are too bad. My brother lives in a rural town, and the rates are about the same as that on average, within the town. So I don;t think the cost of the rates is reason enough to become independent, because it is unlikely that the rates would decrease. The big benefit with being part of the supercity, is it is like insurance, as you have a big juggernaut to help you out if you need funding for something.

 
 
 

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Technofreak
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  #1264080 20-Mar-2015 14:33
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mattwnz: I think is some ways it is good to centralise the council away from the area it is looking after. Otherwise there is the possibility of getting cosy relationships between local people and providers and council, including developers.
Please prove that this doesn't happen in even a larger way with big councils.

mattwnz: The big benefit with being part of the supercity, is it is like insurance, as you have a big juggernaut to help you out if you need funding for something.
And a big hungry beast to feed all the rest of the time.




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cyberhub

224 posts

Master Geek


  #1264082 20-Mar-2015 14:35
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mattwnz: I think is some ways it is good to centralise the council away from the area it is looking after. Otherwise there is the possibility of getting cosy relationships between local people and providers and council, including developers. You can also get developers who become councilors to push their cause. It is all about money and power. Local councils do have a significant amount of power. I don;t think the average rates for Waiheke are too bad. My brother lives in a rural town, and the rates are about the same as that on average, within the town. So I don;t think the cost of the rates is reason enough to become independent, because it is unlikely that the rates would decrease. The big benefit with being part of the supercity, is it is like insurance, as you have a big juggernaut to help you out if you need funding for something.


mattwnz thanks for your response, yes the idea of centralizing government and reducing duplication in roles and reducing costs sound great.  Sadly I don't think that has happened with Aucklands "Super City"

mattwnz have you had any experience with Auckland Council or Auckland Transport?

If not, have a read about what Auckland Chamber of Commerce has to say about it http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11418126

Or perhaps you can read what every single local board chair in Auckland agree upon.  Now bear in mind that these people are all elected to represent their communities.  Also they are politicians, getting politicians to agree on anything is very hard to do.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10630588/Browns-Auckland-masterplan-gets-21-gun-refute

Or perhaps you can check out the massive IT budget blow out

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11361810

Or you can check out how Auckland Council's Debt has grown uncontrolled with no accountability

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6593849/Councils-debt-levels-slammed-by-agency

Now that you have read that stuff, tell me what you think?






SaltyNZ
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  #1264087 20-Mar-2015 14:43
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cyberhub: 

Or perhaps you can check out the massive IT budget blow out

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11361810

Now that you have read that stuff, tell me what you think?




I think that the people who made the decisions didn't triple the quoted budget cost and timeframes before they started.




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SpookyAwol
626 posts

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  #1264163 20-Mar-2015 16:02
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mattwnz: The big benefit with being part of the supercity, is it is like insurance, as you have a big juggernaut to help you out if you need funding for something.


...or less money through bad management or selective funding of pet projects. Tell that to the smaller districts that have lost any say in the matter due to being out voted by the larger council majority. Tell that to the smaller districts that no longer get or arent provided the same benefits as their neighbors. 


Aredwood
3885 posts

Uber Geek


  #1264727 21-Mar-2015 21:06

Fully agree. You could make the same case for the North Shore de-amalgamating as well. As before the supercity. North shore had built the northern busway. (road that runs parallel with the northern motorway that only buses use). Had built a new outfall pipe with a 100 year design life for the sewage treatment plant. (lots of very deep tunnelling required). So they had no problem funding major projects. All of the sewers, water pipes were directly owned. As well as having it's own sewage treatment plant. The only connection outside the city was buying water from Watercare (back when watercare only owned the dams and sth Auckland sewage treatment plant). And of course the harbour is a natural boundary. With the harbour bridge and upper harbour bridge being the only connections to west and south.

If the council goes ahead with motorway tolls. It will badly affect the shore. Since you can't avoid the motorways to travel West and South.





blackjack17
1705 posts

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  #1264739 21-Mar-2015 21:37
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 North shore had built the northern busway. (road that runs parallel with the northern motorway that only buses use).


Are you shore :)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Busway,_Auckland#cite_note-BITS-6 

 

Funding[edit]

 

The busway became fully operational in 2009, with some final sections being completed with little publicity, for around NZ$290–294 million: $210 million for the busway and $84 million for the stations.[15][16] The project was funded by Transit New Zealand, ARTA and the Auckland City Council and North Shore City Councils.[6




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