What is the point of Semble?

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#1338858 7-Jul-2015 19:29

MileHighKiwi: I'm looking forward to the day I can go out and all I will need to carry is my phone, especially a night out on the town :)

I think I can honestly say that those words will never leave my mouth...! ;-)

Geektastic

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#1338862 7-Jul-2015 19:35

VodafoneDylan:
graemeh: I tried putting a paytag sticker on my NFC phone, it was not a good outcome as the phone tried to talk to the sticker :(

Yeah, personally I'm not a big fan of the stickers, very much prefer Semble.

Although... there is some potential for fun... For example if you wear a hat you could hide a sticker in the brim and pay by ceremoniously tipping your hat to the payment terminal.

Or stick it on your hand, wear white gloves and pay ..."as if by magic!" as you wave your hand over the terminal!

Yabanize

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#1338863 7-Jul-2015 19:35

Geektastic:
coffeebaron:
sbiddle:
Yabanize:
roobarb:
sbiddle: Semble can't emulate EFTPOS. Why? Because EFTPOS doesn't have a NFC solution.

You would need a very very thin phone with a magstripe on it....

Although if you have a Visa Debit card with a chip on it, you can use Eftpos (your check or savings account) by inserting the card (using the chip) and not using the mag stripe

But this is still a Visa solution (and likewise there is a MasterCard debit solution).

From a technical perspective adding NFC to "EFTPOS" (ie your cheque/savings) is actually very simple. The business rules around this however are a major change, particularly when you start to deal with issues with as fraud liability and who should absorb this, particularly as there are no interchange fee to essentially absorb this from. I don't know what the current level of CC fraud is in NZ but if you're to assume we're similar to Australian we'll be sitting at around 0.5%

Moving forward, this needs to happen. Why should shop owners have to pay 2-5% merchant fees to have contact payment facility. This will only reach mass market once there is an EFTPOS (not VISA debit) NFC option. I hope the banks are seriously looking at solutions to provide this.

Do people really still use EFTPOS cards? About time they went in the bin - they are as much use as a chocolate fireguard if you set foot outside NZ. In fact I think NZ might be one of few - if not the only - place where some sort of networked card system has not replaced a homespun version.

Yes - Because some people don't want a credit card or can't get one, they would rather spend the money they have.

Visa Debit / the master card equivalent gives the best of both worlds.. Spending your own money, while still being able to use it online and overseas

mdf

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#1338866 7-Jul-2015 19:40

sbiddle: The Nexus does fully support HCE which is what Westpac and ANZ will launch in coming months.

Ultimately you'd expect to see Semble going down the same path and supporting HCE. It has some significant advantages, but does have some disadvantages.

So, I've been reading about this some more.

Am I right in saying that:

- there are two main options for NFC/smartphone payments - Host-based Card Emulation (HCE) and Secure Element-based card emulation (SE)
- for SE, there is a physical "token" (might not be the right word) in the phone that contains the information necessary to make a payment
- for HCE, the "token" is actually stored in the cloud
- for SE, the phone's CPU and operating system are not actually engaged/are fully bypassed in making payments (this is how it can work when the phone is off). This is notionally more secure against hacking.
- for HCE, the phone's CPU and operating system have to be engaged to send the request to the relevant cloud server. This is notionally less secure against hacking
- in both cases, the token doesn't actually store "real" payment information (e.g. credit card and PIN number), rather something like a hash or public/private key cryptography that allows the information to be retrieved - this may well address the hacking point/feats.
- Semble and Snapper use SE, with the secure element part of of the SIM card
- Apple pay also uses SE, but the secure element is embedded in the phone
- Google Wallet/Pay uses HCE

Pros of SE:
- inherently very secure
- can function without phone on
- can function without a data connection

Cons of SE:
- everything has to be routed via the SE - with only limited capacity and processing power, may be more limited in it's future flexibility/adapdability
- if you have the SE, you have the keys to the house
- tied to a particular secure element/device

Pros of HCE:
- much more flexible - e.g. new apps allowing payment functionality much more straightforward
- not tied to a particular device

Cons of HCE:
- less secure/more vulnerable
- needs power and data connection

Sound about right? I'm new to this, what have I missed?

roobarb

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#1338875 7-Jul-2015 20:04

mdf: Sound about right? I'm new to this, what have I missed?

That's a pretty good summary. A little additions is that both Semble credit cards and Snapper are fully fledged equivalents to the plastic cards. The SIM contains the full EMV card applets and they appear to a terminal as a full EMV card with secure keys/certificates and perform the same authentication/transaction exchange as a contactless card. For semble credit cards it is like having another plastic card that refer to the same account. For Snapper, it contains its own individual stored value purse.

richms

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#1338880 7-Jul-2015 20:17

Yabanize:
Yes - Because some people don't want a credit card or can't get one, they would rather spend the money they have.

Visa Debit / the master card equivalent gives the best of both worlds.. Spending your own money, while still being able to use it online and overseas

Sounds like bank marketing BS.

its really the worst of both worlds.

Instant take from your own money like eftpos, and insecurity and high fees of a visa/mastercard.

Why _anyone_ would think that exposing your own money to the risks of a visa card is a good idea is something I do not understand. Credit cards are available with very low limits, so you can be assured of paying it off each month. Last I checked $500 was available, zero risk to you, leave the money in your savings or transaction account till the due day and then pay it all so long as you dont need to dispute anything.

Richard rich.ms

sbiddle

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#1338882 7-Jul-2015 20:18

The main advantage/disadvantage (depending on your view) with UICC based SE (ie Semble) is that it requires the mobile operators to be part of the solution. To gain traction it also requires every mobile network operator to be on board, something that's never happened anywhere except NZ.

Their are many advantages of this, it's easy to deploy OTA updates to update or disable the SE for example.

A couple of the main downsides have been carriers around the world deciding it's the perfect way to clip the ticket on such a solution, something banks and credit card companies haven't been happy with. Another is that it also requires a device with a UICC in it, whereas a HCE based solution can work on a device that may only have a WiFi connection.

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richms

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#1338884 7-Jul-2015 20:20

It seems like an oversight of the HCE standard to not have provided a path to the cloud via the payment terminal. Cant count on mobile networks working indoors where you want to pay.

Richard rich.ms

roobarb

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#1338888 7-Jul-2015 20:26

richms: It seems like an oversight of the HCE standard to not have provided a path to the cloud via the payment terminal. Cant count on mobile networks working indoors where you want to pay.

You mean you want HCE to require the use of magic where the normal rules of physics are not sufficient?

HCE knows nothing about payments in the same way that TCP/IP knows nothing about YouTube, All HCE does is lets you exchange ISO7816 APDU over ISO14443, it says nothing about why you are exchanging those APDUs.

It sounds like you are asking for an NFC Forum NDEF WiFi or Bluetooth handover.

richms

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#1338910 7-Jul-2015 21:13

roobarb: You mean you want HCE to require the use of magic where the normal rules of physics are not sufficient?

HCE knows nothing about payments in the same way that TCP/IP knows nothing about YouTube, All HCE does is lets you exchange ISO7816 APDU over ISO14443, it says nothing about why you are exchanging those APDUs.

It sounds like you are asking for an NFC Forum NDEF WiFi or Bluetooth handover.

Yeah, that would do it. Its not like anything that has NFC in it doesn't already have at least those 2 other radios built into it, and they can also push data over the NFC channel as well but that may mean holding the phone in place for too long.

Richard rich.ms

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#1338939 7-Jul-2015 22:09

Yabanize:
Geektastic:
coffeebaron:
sbiddle:
Yabanize:
roobarb:
sbiddle: Semble can't emulate EFTPOS. Why? Because EFTPOS doesn't have a NFC solution.

You would need a very very thin phone with a magstripe on it....

Although if you have a Visa Debit card with a chip on it, you can use Eftpos (your check or savings account) by inserting the card (using the chip) and not using the mag stripe

But this is still a Visa solution (and likewise there is a MasterCard debit solution).

From a technical perspective adding NFC to "EFTPOS" (ie your cheque/savings) is actually very simple. The business rules around this however are a major change, particularly when you start to deal with issues with as fraud liability and who should absorb this, particularly as there are no interchange fee to essentially absorb this from. I don't know what the current level of CC fraud is in NZ but if you're to assume we're similar to Australian we'll be sitting at around 0.5%

Moving forward, this needs to happen. Why should shop owners have to pay 2-5% merchant fees to have contact payment facility. This will only reach mass market once there is an EFTPOS (not VISA debit) NFC option. I hope the banks are seriously looking at solutions to provide this.

Do people really still use EFTPOS cards? About time they went in the bin - they are as much use as a chocolate fireguard if you set foot outside NZ. In fact I think NZ might be one of few - if not the only - place where some sort of networked card system has not replaced a homespun version.

Yes - Because some people don't want a credit card or can't get one, they would rather spend the money they have.

Visa Debit / the master card equivalent gives the best of both worlds.. Spending your own money, while still being able to use it online and overseas

Exactly. My bank was issuing me with Visa Debit (known in the UK as Visa Delta in those ancient times) cards when I was at university in 1988. Surely it makes sense simply to bin Eftpos (the unbranded NZ specific card not the payment system) and replace it with that like most other places have done?

Geektastic

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#1338941 7-Jul-2015 22:12

richms:
Yabanize:
Yes - Because some people don't want a credit card or can't get one, they would rather spend the money they have.

Visa Debit / the master card equivalent gives the best of both worlds.. Spending your own money, while still being able to use it online and overseas

Sounds like bank marketing BS.

its really the worst of both worlds.

Instant take from your own money like eftpos, and insecurity and high fees of a visa/mastercard.

Why _anyone_ would think that exposing your own money to the risks of a visa card is a good idea is something I do not understand. Credit cards are available with very low limits, so you can be assured of paying it off each month. Last I checked $500 was available, zero risk to you, leave the money in your savings or transaction account till the due day and then pay it all so long as you dont need to dispute anything.

Firstly, credit cards are not available to everyone (although I suppose you could use the pre-paid version). Not everyone is considered a good risk.

Secondly, Visa guarantee fraudulent transactions (assumedly Master Card also) so provided you have not handed out your PIN or written it in felt tip on the back of the card, no one should be able to do anything with it that will cost you.

Kyanar

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#1338953 7-Jul-2015 22:59

Geektastic:
Do people really still use EFTPOS cards? About time they went in the bin - they are as much use as a chocolate fireguard if you set foot outside NZ. In fact I think NZ might be one of few - if not the only - place where some sort of networked card system has not replaced a homespun version.

Incorrect. Outside New Zealand (and Australia, for the Kangaroo brethren) your EFTPOS card is still capable of obtaining money from your bank account at an ATM via the Plus (Visa) and Cirrus (MasterCard) networks. You can't use it at payment terminals or on the internet, but some would actually say that's a good thing. Although Eftpos Australia is working to ruin that with support for internet payments via EFTPOS cards, which will likely make it to NZ relatively quickly once completed. Paymark is already muttering about it.

kiwitrc

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#1338986 8-Jul-2015 06:43

So here is a basic question, do people who don't accept credit cards, accept debit cards? I am thinking in my case about the epicurean delights I purchase from Moore Wilson Wellington.

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#1339083 8-Jul-2015 09:23

kiwitrc: So here is a basic question, do people who don't accept credit cards, accept debit cards? I am thinking in my case about the epicurean delights I purchase from Moore Wilson Wellington.

Yes, Moore Wilson certainly do as I use mine there often - I have never had my Visa Debit refused anywhere in NZ where an eftpos machine is available.

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