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Aredwood
3885 posts

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  #1805464 23-Jun-2017 01:41

mattwnz:

 

 

 

I hope so. I do wonder why we are polluting the earth with excess CO2 and over chemicals from petrol cars, when we could be all electric, generated from wind, sun and water. But I guess oil companies don't make money if they don't sell petrol. But the end resolve is that we have caused damage to the earth, and more cost due to global warming, extreme weather events, and rising sea levels. We can thank the generations that came before us that started that off, as I believe electric cars were around before petrol cars. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Several enabling technologies have only happened relatively recently to make electric cars practical.

 

Li-ion batteries. For a long time the only major rechargeable battery technologies available were Lead based (Flooded lead acid / AGM), and Nickel based (NiCd / NiMH) Which all suffered from problems like poor weight to energy storage ratios and poor number of charge cycles until battery fails.

 

MOSFETs and IGBTs. Electronic components that allow high speed switching of high voltages and currents. They enabled the building of light, efficient, and high power DC-DC converters.

 

Cheap, high speed computers and micro-controllers.

 

Brushless DC motors. No carbon brushes to wear out, waste power, and which require maintenance. Yet practical Brushless DC motors also required MOSFETs and micro-controllers to be invented first as well.

 

 

 

Electric cars were originally better than early petrol cars. Back when petrol cars had to be hand cranked, engines used "hit and miss" speed regulation (engine ran at full throttle all the time as they didn't even have throttles then, and speed regulation was via a governor that induced a missfire to regulate engine speed). And required constant cleaning of things like spark plugs to keep them working. Electric cars used flooded lead acid batteries, carbon brush DC motors, and speed control was a big selector switch that switched different resistors in and out of the electric motor circuit. Wasting lots of electricity as heat in the process. Early electric cars were much nicer to drive than petrol cars of the time. But carburettor technology improved, and electric starting was invented. Solving most of the problems with early petrol cars.

 

 

 

On a more serious note, some laws definitely need to change. The low user regulations need to be repealed. Because of them, anyone on a low user plan can purchase LPG and diesel cheaper on a per KW/Hr basis than electricity. Complete madness that 0% renewable fossil fuels are available for a cheaper delivered price that 80%+ renewable electricity. The low user rates simply increase the price everyone pays for electricity. And they also mean that the electricity price that someone pays bears no resemblance to the carbon emissions caused by generating that electricity. Or the amount of network investment required to get that electricity to them.

 

The resource management act doesn't properly weigh up local environmental effects, with regional and national + international environmental effects.

 

Building a hydro power station - Earthworks, habitat loss, forest loss from building a dam and manmade lake. Vs reduction in carbon emissions from displacement of fossil fuelled generation, and cheaper electricity meaning fossil fuelled heating getting replaced with electric heating ect.

 

Allowing more greenfields and brownfields housing redevelopment. - Habitat loss ect (greenfields) and more people in the same area, houses closer together, changing neighbourhood character (brownfields) Vs People being more able to afford to live close to work, education, ect - Less car use, more public transport use, more time for leisure activities instead of stuck in traffic.

 

Allowing more farming - Water pollution, methane emissions from animals Vs Overseas farms where the animals are fed grains grown off site instead of just eating grass. And where they are kept in large barns over winter that are heated with fossil fuels. NZ farming is mostly really efficient, More carbon emissions from NZ farming will almost certainly mean less overall worldwide emissions. Due to NZ dairy, beef ect exports displacing output from more emissions intensive overseas farms.

 

Local effects get far too much weighting.






jarledb
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  #1805466 23-Jun-2017 02:59
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shk292
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  #1805485 23-Jun-2017 08:35
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blakamin:

 

Shame about all the history they flooded when they filled it. I was there about 2 years before it was finished. Some beautiful landscape and history gone forever.

 

 

If you're looking for a zero-impact way of generating city-levels of electricity, I think you're going to be sadly disappointed.  Every power source has an effect on its surroundings.  For me, hydro's minimal/beneficial side effects combined with its reliability and "on demand" power availability make it an attractive option for NZ


coffeebaron
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  #1805489 23-Jun-2017 08:44
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Back in the day, I ran a BBS called Nuclear Power Plant.




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Fred99
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  #1805492 23-Jun-2017 08:52
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shk292:

 

blakamin:

 

Shame about all the history they flooded when they filled it. I was there about 2 years before it was finished. Some beautiful landscape and history gone forever.

 

 

If you're looking for a zero-impact way of generating city-levels of electricity, I think you're going to be sadly disappointed.  Every power source has an effect on its surroundings.  For me, hydro's minimal/beneficial side effects combined with its reliability and "on demand" power availability make it an attractive option for NZ

 

 

The downside being that the location for future schemes (if they were to be allowed) isn't where demand is.

 

Geothermal is another option - with location closer to population centres.


DaveDog
336 posts

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  #1805496 23-Jun-2017 09:16
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Tiwai closing isn't going to provide a whole lot of breathing space at all... Probably none.

 

 

 

The bulk of the electricity for Tiwai (all perhaps) is produced at the Milford power station. When you take Tiwai out of the equation, the bulk of the demand for that power is in the upper north island - The transmission infrastructure that we have now is often at (or close to) capacity during times of peak demand - so a huge amount of work would need to be done on that infrastructure for it to be of real use.


Coil
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  #1805498 23-Jun-2017 09:22
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coffeebaron: Back in the day, I ran a BBS called Nuclear Power Plant.

 

 

 

I run BBS on my car! 


SaltyNZ
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  #1805514 23-Jun-2017 10:03
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TimA:

coffeebaron: Back in the day, I ran a BBS called Nuclear Power Plant.


 


I run BBS on my car! 



I don't think that's how IoT is supposed to work.




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Coil
6614 posts

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  #1805523 23-Jun-2017 10:17
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SaltyNZ:
TimA:

 

coffeebaron: Back in the day, I ran a BBS called Nuclear Power Plant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I run BBS on my car! 

 



I don't think that's how IoT is supposed to work.

 

:D

 


MikeAqua
7773 posts

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  #1805542 23-Jun-2017 10:33
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Aredwood:

 

 

 

Building a hydro power station - Earthworks, habitat loss, forest loss from building a dam and manmade lake. Vs reduction in carbon emissions from displacement of fossil fuelled generation, and cheaper electricity meaning fossil fuelled heating getting replaced with electric heating ect.

 

 

Hydro dams are certainly complicated from an environmental perspective ...

 

That said ... I like dams because they create lakes, which store potential-kinetic energy.  They can be a recreational asset too.  Wind farms and solar panels are instantaneous generators with no inherent storage capacity.  You have to add (expensive and not that effective) batteries to store power.  I'd argue that Li-ion batteries still have poor energy density and they are high cost too.

 

A problem in NZ is that the govt no longer builds dams.  It's left to generators, who will only build new generation at a rate required to match demand so that the price stays high enough to ensure a return on investment.  Investment is also tempered by the uncertainty of the RMA.  You could spend tens of millions seeking approval for a large new generation project and get nothing for that.

 

This makes distributed renewable micro-generation appealing.  It would be even more appealing if we had cheap and effective batteries to some alternative technology to battery.

 

We already have a giant fusion reactor at our disposal.  But we can't store it's energy well enough ...





Mike


jonathan18
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  #1805566 23-Jun-2017 11:19
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6FIEND:


A side issue for sure, but what a way to go by that source presenting data in such a misleading fashion. Straight out of the Rob Muldoon School of Graphs, and a guaranteed way to make things look way worse than the data actually states.

MikeAqua
7773 posts

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  #1805571 23-Jun-2017 11:28
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jonathan18:
A side issue for sure, but what a way to go by that source presenting data in such a misleading fashion. Straight out of the Rob Muldoon School of Graphs, and a guaranteed way to make things look way worse than the data actually states.

 

3-D graphs can be misleading. Generally banned for two dimensional data in scientific journals (the ones I'm familiar with anyway).

 

Eye-balling that graphic. the side length of each cubes seem proportional to the death-rate it represents. If that is correct then the cubed  volume is of course death-rate ^3.  So 3 feels 9 times worse than 1.





Mike


robjg63
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  #1805625 23-Jun-2017 12:39
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MikeB4:

 

Wiggum:

 

I have never quiet understood the kiwi obsession with being anti-nuclear. 

 

 

 

 

1. Our GDP is mostly on the back of our Primary industries, a nuclear accident would wreck that. 

 

2. We are a geologically unstable land, it would be very risky to build Nuke plants here.

 

3. An accident with a Wind Farm or a Hydro station is not going to render a large chunk of the country unusable for a very long time

 

 

The worry is that our biggest Hydro stations are in very vulnerable geographic locations in respect of massive earthquake risk. I mean the Southern Alps and the hydro dams in the South Island. Fortunately, when they were built (and we had a Ministry of Works that seemed to really know how to build things properly) they were apparently 'over-engineered'. But I dont know quite how much this over-engineering would keep them safe.

 

Totally agree with points 1 & 2.

 

Wind and Solar are surely the best answer for NZ.





Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler


Jonski

265 posts

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  #1805652 23-Jun-2017 13:28
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robjg63:

 

The worry is that our biggest Hydro stations are in very vulnerable geographic locations in respect of massive earthquake risk. I mean the Southern Alps and the hydro dams in the South Island. Fortunately, when they were built (and we had a Ministry of Works that seemed to really know how to build things properly) they were apparently 'over-engineered'. But I dont know quite how much this over-engineering would keep them safe.

 

 

Over engineered for what we knew about earthquakes 50 years ago. Probably sufficient for current practice, but one day we'll wish for stronger.





I reject your reality and substitute my own!
- Adam Savage, Mythbuster

Jonski

265 posts

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  #1805653 23-Jun-2017 13:29
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MikeAqua:

 

Aredwood:

 

 

 

Building a hydro power station - Earthworks, habitat loss, forest loss from building a dam and manmade lake. Vs reduction in carbon emissions from displacement of fossil fuelled generation, and cheaper electricity meaning fossil fuelled heating getting replaced with electric heating ect.

 

 

Hydro dams are certainly complicated from an environmental perspective ...

 

That said ... I like dams because they create lakes, which store potential-kinetic energy.  They can be a recreational asset too.  Wind farms and solar panels are instantaneous generators with no inherent storage capacity.  You have to add (expensive and not that effective) batteries to store power.  I'd argue that Li-ion batteries still have poor energy density and they are high cost too.

 

A problem in NZ is that the govt no longer builds dams.  It's left to generators, who will only build new generation at a rate required to match demand so that the price stays high enough to ensure a return on investment.  Investment is also tempered by the uncertainty of the RMA.  You could spend tens of millions seeking approval for a large new generation project and get nothing for that.

 

This makes distributed renewable micro-generation appealing.  It would be even more appealing if we had cheap and effective batteries to some alternative technology to battery.

 

We already have a giant fusion reactor at our disposal.  But we can't store it's energy well enough ...

 

 

I definitely think that we need to install more geothermal. It's great for base load systems (same as nuclear). We recently discovered a source on the West Coast which was followed a few weeks later by concerns that the West Coast would be electrically isolated in event of an Alpine Fault rupture. 2 plus 2, guys!

 

Micro-generation is certainly another aspect that is rapidly becoming more suitable, especially with improved storage capability. But what's the point of having Solar on your roof when your windows are still single-glazed and your walls un-insulated?

 

I think the government should absolutely be building dams and so on, as affordable power resources are of national interest.

 

Perhaps we can use solar in the day to pump water uphill?





I reject your reality and substitute my own!
- Adam Savage, Mythbuster

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