Catching thieves - "bait packages"

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#1955445 11-Feb-2018 21:52

networkn:

tdgeek:

floydbloke:

Rikkitic:

What I find most disturbing about this thread is that the poisoned alcohol post got nine +1's. Sadly, vigilantism is alive and well on Geekzone.

I don’t believe that truly means that a large proportion of Geekzoners are looking to inflict (near) fatal damage on petty criminals, but rather it’s a reflection that many honest hard-working kiwis are fed up with the lax approach by the authorities to fight and prevent crimes like these, and the lefty-liberal wet bus-ticket penalties when the perpetrators are caught .

I get that.But if the Govt added enough Police to make crime a severe risk, the taxpayers wouldn't stand for the extra tax, or the cuts to other spending. The money pit in NZ isnt bottomless

Maybe they could reassign some from revenue gathering (oops sorry I mean traffic duty).

Then crime drops 50%, accidents rise 50%!

However, it would be a nice experiment to fund a massive Police increase for a one year period. A crash course for non Police Assistants, as well as whatever officers can be trained up. Burglar Alarm subsidy or interest free loan so every house had one. Double the incarceration and halve the food, and so on. Must be many creative ideas to help

gzt

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#1955449 11-Feb-2018 22:08

Burglar Alarm subsidy or interest free loan so every house had one.

Don't forget to add some additional noise control officers for that.

Geektastic

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#1955450 11-Feb-2018 22:21

networkn:

Geektastic:

This is where we differ. I don't care remotely about fairness to criminals.

I've been burgled twice and wouldn't have the slightest concern what happened to the scum who did it if it prevented them from doing it again.
If they don't like consequences perhaps they could, you know, not commit crimes.

Ok so a couple of questions for you then;

1) If you were to be involved in an accident, where you killed someone, and it was deemed you were at fault, would you suggest it reasonable to be executed for it?

2) What if you drove over the legal limit for alcohol?

3) What if you were speeding?

Considering the sentence for planning to, and killing someone, is about 20 years, execution for burglary would seem... Extreme?

1) An accident is by definition not a crime

2) I have never done that and do not intend to do it. I have imposed a zero limit on myself when driving for over 30 years.

3) I've had all of 2 or 3 speeding tickets in my driving career, all for very minor offences. I have a speed warning in the car set at 98 and another set at 100. I am not an habitual speeder

Your point that the sentence for premeditated murder is 20 years at the taxpayer's expense merely demonstrates that the sentence for premeditated murder is not severe enough, not that any increase in other sentences is disproportionate.

Geektastic

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#1955451 11-Feb-2018 22:25

gzt: 100 packets of cigarettes have a retail value around $NZ2500 and are easily carried and distributed. For tobacco motivated robberies less stock on hand and daily or twice daily deliveries may be a better fix. The ordering system required would have to be very responsive.

Our village shop has been burgled for the tobacco at least 4 times in recent years. One other shop in the village actually ceased stocking tobacco products at all as they deemed the risk too great.

I suppose a contrarian view might be that if the government did not make them quite so expensive the temptation to rob and sell them might be rather lower.

networkn

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#1955453 11-Feb-2018 22:27

Geektastic:

1) An accident is by definition not a crime

2) I have never done that and do not intend to do it. I have imposed a zero limit on myself when driving for over 30 years.

3) I've had all of 2 or 3 speeding tickets in my driving career, all for very minor offences. I have a speed warning in the car set at 98 and another set at 100. I am not an habitual speeder

Your point that the sentence for premeditated murder is 20 years at the taxpayer's expense merely demonstrates that the sentence for premeditated murder is not severe enough, not that any increase in other sentences is disproportionate.

1) Ok, that's fair enough, but you can still be charged for manslaughter if you accidentally kill someone.

2) Right, but if someone does, execute them? I mean surely, if burglary gets you death sentence then so must everything more serious?

3) Well, you've had one. If you were speeding, and killed someone, fair to execute you ?

4) The death sentence isn't a deterrent for a lot of murders. Often people who kill others, do so in a moment of rage or passion, or under extenuating circumstances, in those situations, people aren't considering consequences. It's the argument against repealing the anti smacking law. Those who beat their kids half to death, aren't in control of themselves. The thought of punishment for doing it, isn't primary or even secondary. Remorse (usually) follows afterwards. IE Repealing it won't save many if any lives.

networkn

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#1955455 11-Feb-2018 22:28

Geektastic:

gzt: 100 packets of cigarettes have a retail value around $NZ2500 and are easily carried and distributed. For tobacco motivated robberies less stock on hand and daily or twice daily deliveries may be a better fix. The ordering system required would have to be very responsive.

Our village shop has been burgled for the tobacco at least 4 times in recent years. One other shop in the village actually ceased stocking tobacco products at all as they deemed the risk too great.

I suppose a contrarian view might be that if the government did not make them quite so expensive the temptation to rob and sell them might be rather lower.

Or if we banned them altogether outright.

Journeyman

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#1955459 11-Feb-2018 22:31

And the soapbox crowd certainly didn't fail to disappoint.

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Shop now for Lenovo laptops and other devices (affiliate link).

networkn

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#1955464 11-Feb-2018 22:50

Journeyman:

And the soapbox crowd certainly didn't fail to disappoint.

Well, you say something blatantly controversial and then don't expect a response, in my mind, that's trolling.

elpenguino

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#1955469 12-Feb-2018 00:05

Geektastic:

networkn:

Geektastic:

This is where we differ. I don't care remotely about fairness to criminals.

I've been burgled twice and wouldn't have the slightest concern what happened to the scum who did it if it prevented them from doing it again.
If they don't like consequences perhaps they could, you know, not commit crimes.

Ok so a couple of questions for you then;

1) If you were to be involved in an accident, where you killed someone, and it was deemed you were at fault, would you suggest it reasonable to be executed for it?

2) What if you drove over the legal limit for alcohol?

3) What if you were speeding?

Considering the sentence for planning to, and killing someone, is about 20 years, execution for burglary would seem... Extreme?

1) An accident is by definition not a crime

A traffic 'accident' is often a crime, careless reckless or another less type of driving for starters.

We shouldn't use the word accident for traffic collisions , it implies no one could influence the outcome.

I heard that in the middle east, killing some else while driving results in a sentence as if you had murdered them.

To the family of the victim it doesn't matter how you did it, but in the NZ legal system we have the idea of intent.

Re burgs, kiwi houses are soft targets. I'm sure we've all been to other countries where burglar bars feature on 1st story windows.

You expect bars in thailand and south africa, even sydney, but switzerland too?

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

Journeyman

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#1955471 12-Feb-2018 00:49

networkn:

Journeyman:

And the soapbox crowd certainly didn't fail to disappoint.

Well, you say something blatantly controversial and then don't expect a response, in my mind, that's trolling.

In my mind, it's having a laugh. People could respond in kind but some here take things a little too seriously.

Dratsab

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#1955474 12-Feb-2018 06:07

floydbloke:

Rikkitic: What I find most disturbing about this thread is that the poisoned alcohol post got nine +1's. Sadly, vigilantism is alive and well on Geekzone.

I don’t believe that truly means that a large proportion of Geekzoners are looking to inflict (near) fatal damage on petty criminals, but rather it’s a reflection that many honest hard-working kiwis are fed up with the lax approach by the authorities to fight and prevent crimes like these, and the lefty-liberal wet bus-ticket penalties when the perpetrators are caught.

I just find it a sign that there's a small proportion of keyboard warriors here. Full of BS.

Rikkitic: I also get angry when I see hard-working dairy owners being repeatedly robbed by low-lifes and they can't seem to do anything to protect themselves. But I still don't believe that giving them guns is an answer.

I don't think they should have any sort of weapon unless they're fully prepared to use it and face the possibility of being prosecuted themselves. People such as dairy owners arming themselves will/can only lead to an escalation in the weaponry robbers take with them. Then there's also the consideration of dairy owners (and/or their family members) being disarmed and killed with their own weapons.

Journeyman: I'd be perfectly okay with dairy owners being allowed to keep a loaded shotgun under counter with legal authorisation to blow away anyone who tries to rob them.

In which case you'll also have to say you're perfectly happy with the thought of that weapon being used against the person occupying the dairy at the time. I've seen, on a lot of occasions, children of the owners running the store while the adults are doing something else...

tdgeek: However, it would be a nice experiment to fund a massive Police increase for a one year period. A crash course for non Police Assistants, as well as whatever officers can be trained up. Burglar Alarm subsidy or interest free loan so every house had one. Double the incarceration and halve the food, and so on. Must be many creative ideas to help.

Minimum sentencing guidelines would be a great start. The maximum penalty for burglary is 10 years (Crimes Act 1961, s231). Imposed sentences are nowhere near this long. The system here is extremely soft.

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#1955481 12-Feb-2018 07:10

Just to be clear, when I started this thread, my intended primary audience was the police, and "of interest" to the laymen, who may have suggested it to the police, or even donated equipment.

I was hoping perhaps some off-duty police officers would read this thread, and perhaps use the US idea of actively catching criminals instead of reacting to crimes.

The police uses of "bait packages" are similar to the use of "bait-bikes" and "bait-cars." It's done by law-enforcement professional, knowing that even catching a criminal on a "bait-bike" is dangerous for everyone.

I can understand everyone's frustration at property crime, in particular the mom-and-pop businesses robberies.

I know what I think should be done about crime, as I'm sure everyone has their own ideas.

But this thread has rapidly devolved.

Dratsab

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#1955488 12-Feb-2018 08:17

NZ Police have used bait cars in the past, there was a reasonably entertaining TV show based around it. The big problem currently, is that police funding was frozen for 9 years under the previous Government which, taking into account inflationary pressures, was effectively a reduction of budget. This has hit their ability to respond to a number of things quite hard. You constantly see it in news - people all over the place, especially burglary victims, complaining about a lack of response. I actually laughed at a suggestion a page or two back suggesting road police be reallocated as this indicates a lack of awareness of the 111 positions that were cut from road policing last year due to a funding cut from NZTA.

Bait packages and the such like are a great idea but you need the staff to do this kind of work. Most police time these days seems to be taken up by domestic disputes, mental health calls, drunken idiots and people crashing their vehicles.

cruxis

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#1955511 12-Feb-2018 09:21

Dratsab:

NZ Police have used bait cars in the past, there was a reasonably entertaining TV show based around it. The big problem currently, is that police funding was frozen for 9 years under the previous Government which, taking into account inflationary pressures, was effectively a reduction of budget. This has hit their ability to respond to a number of things quite hard. You constantly see it in news - people all over the place, especially burglary victims, complaining about a lack of response. I actually laughed at a suggestion a page or two back suggesting road police be reallocated as this indicates a lack of awareness of the 111 positions that were cut from road policing last year due to a funding cut from NZTA.

Bait packages and the such like are a great idea but you need the staff to do this kind of work. Most police time these days seems to be taken up by domestic disputes, mental health calls, drunken idiots and people crashing their vehicles.

The show your talking about was called "Busted"

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=3051077

The police were not happy about the show either "Detective Senior Sergeant Stu Allsopp-Smith, who was head of Auckland's car squad during last May's incident, said leaving a vehicle with a window down and keys inside could entice normally law-abiding people into committing a crime."

Police were contemplating charging them for leaving keys and money visible in cars as it was encouraging crime. But under advice could not make it stick, Almost like victim blaming.

JimmyH

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#1955524 12-Feb-2018 09:41

gzt: 100 packets of cigarettes have a retail value around $NZ2500

Wow, I had no idea that they were so expensive now. I am astonished that anyone close to the average wage can afford to smoke at all. I have never been a smoker, so don't really understand the nature of tobacco addiction, but if I had a pack a day habit I couldn't quit then I would have taken up growing my own by now - which I understand is both easy and legal.

Coming back towards the topic of the thread, I think the surge in tobacco-related burglaries was an inevitable consequence of jacking up the tax so high. Addicted people will do a lot to maintain their habit, and cigarettes are now a valuable, and portable, item. It's not surprising that people are going to great lengths to steal them - a couple of hundred packs will probably net thieves more than a bank robbery now, and dairys don't have anything like the security that banks do.

I don't think there is a simple solution, and (hyperbole aside) I certainly don't think that arming dairy owners and giving the,m carte blanche to kill should be part of any solution.

I think a multi-pronged solution is needed, which could include:

better security in shops, including HD security camera and publishing pictures in newspapers (even when the offenders are young)
more law enforcement targeted at burglaries, especially aggravated burglaries, found by diverting resources away from pursuing essentially victimless crimes (like cannabis and minor speeding infringements)
possibly some stings - tracking devices placed in dummy cigarette packets in frequently burgled shops etc
tougher sentencing, including minimum sentences for burglary and aggravated burglary, and not letting youths off with a wet bus ticket slapping
and (contraversially) cutting tobacco taxes - prices are well past the point where most people who will quit because of price have already done so, and jacking them up higher is principally squeezing families of limited means (ie the children miss out where the parents keep smoking) and stoking crime.

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