How long should what you say have consequences for?

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Awrrr
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#2615445 3-Dec-2020 10:23

networkn:

Or the people for whom no matter what he does it's not enough.

How do you measure harm done in something like this? I spent a number of years of my late 10's and early teens in a prodominately Maori community, I was a transluscent white kid, and was given lots of stick, including some unprintable pretty racist terms and honestly,

I could really have cared less. I don't consider it harmed me personally, but there are some people for whom that could have been harmful. It was considered pretty "normal" in my community, though I never made similar comments back as I felt that was wrong. There were also kids who in a group would be racist or pleasant (peer pressure?), but on their own showed no signs of that. In adults, alcohol was often a factor. Is it OK? Nope, never. I am scarred for life, nope.

You seem very determined to defend this person. I don't know him or what is going on in his head but I do know how racism affects the people it is directed at. Maybe it didn't bother you, but I imagine it also didn't follow you when you left that community of your childhood and moved into the bigger world. You cannot extrapolate anything from one experience, never mind that the reverse situation cannot really be compared to what black and brown people have to endure all the time. I think you are being dismissive of that experience and your own childhood does not qualify you to comment on it.

I used to be close to a couple of children (now grown), one of whom was an exceptionally pretty brown girl who was crushed by thoughtless racist comments at a new school she attended that mainly catered to privileged white kids. There can never be an excuse for that kind of miserable bullsh¡t, regardless of the age of the perpetrator. That kind of thing comes from the community and the adults. It is inexcusable and unforgivable, especially when aimed at a child. Maybe it didn't scar you. That gives you no right to assume it doesn't deeply wound others.

I don't know if this particular individual is genuinely remorseful or ready to be forgiven. I do believe that people make dumb mistakes, especially when they are young, and they shouldn't have to pay for that all of their lives. But some do, especially when the dumb mistake involves something like a car and other people dying. That is just how things go sometimes. Life isn't fair. But we should do what we can to not make it worse. Maybe this guy is entitled to move on. Maybe people won't let him. What a shame. Life isn't fair.

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martyyn

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#2615446 3-Dec-2020 10:25

MikeB4:

So cherry picking one segment of my post taking it out of context to suit your narrative.

There was no cherry picking, that was your entire response to a single statement saying he no longer holds those views.

You can see where I'm going with this can't you?

If you can't prove what he thinks now on the basis of what he says, how could you do it back then?

I would to state very clearly....I in no way condone what he tweeted, but you would expect people to change an awful lot in nine years.

Paul1977

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#2615475 3-Dec-2020 11:36

Rikkitic:

You seem very determined to defend this person. I don't know him or what is going on in his head but I do know how racism affects the people it is directed at. Maybe it didn't bother you, but I imagine it also didn't follow you when you left that community of your childhood and moved into the bigger world. You cannot extrapolate anything from one experience, never mind that the reverse situation cannot really be compared to what black and brown people have to endure all the time. I think you are being dismissive of that experience and your own childhood does not qualify you to comment on it.

I used to be close to a couple of children (now grown), one of whom was an exceptionally pretty brown girl who was crushed by thoughtless racist comments at a new school she attended that mainly catered to privileged white kids. There can never be an excuse for that kind of miserable bullsh¡t, regardless of the age of the perpetrator. That kind of thing comes from the community and the adults. It is inexcusable and unforgivable, especially when aimed at a child. Maybe it didn't scar you. That gives you no right to assume it doesn't deeply wound others.

I don't know if this particular individual is genuinely remorseful or ready to be forgiven. I do believe that people make dumb mistakes, especially when they are young, and they shouldn't have to pay for that all of their lives. But some do, especially when the dumb mistake involves something like a car and other people dying. That is just how things go sometimes. Life isn't fair. But we should do what we can to not make it worse. Maybe this guy is entitled to move on. Maybe people won't let him. What a shame. Life isn't fair.

But other posters, including yourself, are extrapolating from either your own or family/acquaintances experiences.

It's certainly true that a white person would not have experienced the systemic racism that many people of colour have experienced, but that doesn't invalidate the experiences of @networkn. And it's surely counterproductive to suggest that the only people who are entitled to express their views on the topic are people of colour who have experienced racism directed toward them.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#2615476 3-Dec-2020 11:40

Paul1977:

But other posters, including yourself, are extrapolating from either your own or family/acquaintances experiences.

It's certainly true that a white person would not have experienced the systemic racism that many people of colour have experienced, but that doesn't invalidate the experiences of @networkn. And it's surely counterproductive to suggest that the only people who are entitled to express their views on the topic are people of colour who have experienced racism directed toward them.

I am not suggesting that, just that no conclusions can be drawn from the experience of one person.

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Eva888

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#2615483 3-Dec-2020 11:50

Matera's discriminatory comments were not only about Blacks but also insulted Bolivians and fat people as well.

Ten years ago he was a younger man full of bravado and his own self importance. That can change a lot over the years when experience and wisdom overtakes stupid. In their youth who hasn’t done or said cringeworthy silly things on a whim to impress. Social Media has exacerbated and amplified stupid.

There are also glaring double standards in our society. I see shocked comments by people screaming about racist or discriminatory transgressions, but, those same people en masse have no problem publicly ridiculing and making derogatory remarks about someone whose politics or shortcomings they don't like. One small example, think if everyone who made nasty or derogatory remarks about Trump lost their job for insulting him. How is that different to insulting fat people or Bolivians.

Times change, people change. Matera should be judged on who he is today and not by the skeletons in his closet or crucified by social media. Being a newly woke society doesn’t alter what some people believe inside, it simply suppresses some of it. A decent society boils down to one simple thing...being kind towards everyone and not selectively, that includes forgiveness.

Paul1977

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#2615484 3-Dec-2020 11:50

Rikkitic:

I am not suggesting that, just that no conclusions can be drawn from the experience of one person.

You said:

I think you are being dismissive of that experience and your own childhood does not qualify you to comment on it.

Then what does qualify someone to comment?

I agree that conclusions can't be drawn from individual experiences, but things effect people in different ways. What is psychologically damaging to one person might roll off the back of another. You can't only listen to one experience and then say a different experience doesn't count.

And even people who haven't experienced racism at all still need to be part of the discussion, or what's the point?

MikeB4

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#2615489 3-Dec-2020 12:02

Eva888: Matera's discriminatory comments were not only about Blacks but also insulted Bolivians and fat people as well.

Ten years ago he was a younger man full of bravado and his own self importance. That can change a lot over the years when experience and wisdom overtakes stupid. In their youth who hasn’t done or said cringeworthy silly things on a whim to impress. Social Media has exacerbated and amplified stupid.

There are also glaring double standards in our society. I see shocked comments by people screaming about racist or discriminatory transgressions, but, those same people en masse have no problem publicly ridiculing and making derogatory remarks about someone whose politics or shortcomings they don't like. One small example, think if everyone who made nasty or derogatory remarks about Trump lost their job for insulting him. How is that different to insulting fat people or Bolivians.

Times change, people change. Matera should be judged on who he is today and not by the skeletons in his closet or crucified by social media. Being a newly woke society doesn’t alter what some people believe inside, it simply suppresses some of it. A decent society boils down to one simple thing...being kind towards everyone and not selectively, that includes forgiveness.

Being a "woke" society has sod all to do with it. Racism and Xenophobia is wrong then, wrong now and always been wrong. At 17-20 years old he was well aware what was wrong and what was right that is why at that age they are tried in court as adults unless through disability or illness they are impaired in their judgement. Deleting his post and apologising when his job is at risk is too convenient and simply not enough. Those who call out racist, Xenophobes, bigots are not the onset fault.

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Senecio

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#2615519 3-Dec-2020 12:27

Eva888:
One small example, think if everyone who made nasty or derogatory remarks about Trump lost their job for insulting him. How is that different to insulting fat people or Bolivians.

It’s very different. On the one hand we are criticising an individual for his own actions/words. No one is criticising Trump because of his race, gender, religion, colour, sexual orientation etc....

You’ve used a very poor example to support your argument.

networkn

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#2615539 3-Dec-2020 12:47

Rikkitic:

You seem very determined to defend this person. I don't know him or what is going on in his head but I do know how racism affects the people it is directed at. Maybe it didn't bother you, but I imagine it also didn't follow you when you left that community of your childhood and moved into the bigger world. You cannot extrapolate anything from one experience, never mind that the reverse situation cannot really be compared to what black and brown people have to endure all the time. I think you are being dismissive of that experience and your own childhood does not qualify you to comment on it.

No, I am defending the concept that there should be a statute of limitations on how long someone can be held responsible for something they said in the past if that behaviour has not recurred, and that person has expressed remorse.

I don't know this man, my relationship to him is simply one of watching his onfield feats, and as I said in the original post, it's a thread I have wondered about starting many times over many different situations.

I note you were happy to dismiss my experience(s), but others who have had experiences were not singled out. I do not deny the harm racism does in general, I do not support racism or what this man said. It was abhorrent and revolting and completely unacceptable.

Eva888

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#2615549 3-Dec-2020 12:59

Something that hasn’t been discussed is culture and language. Materos tweets were translated from his native tongue to English. It’s entirely possible that the translation isn’t quite as strong as it sounds in English.

I have the privilege of being a fluent native speaker of two languages and can tell you that it’s almost impossible to translate some sentences or words from one language to another in a way that gives them the colour, accuracy and sense of the original.

You can translate the actual words, but the subtle nuances behind the words of the native language simply can’t precisely confer the original intended meaning. Even a slight up or downward intonation or a lifting of an eyebrow is enough to change a meaning when speaking. Language is too closely related to culture and where two cultures are so different what may seem irreverent to one, is entirely acceptable to the other.

Paul1977

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#2615572 3-Dec-2020 13:18

MikeB4

Being a "woke" society has sod all to do with it. Racism and Xenophobia is wrong then, wrong now and always been wrong. At 17-20 years old he was well aware what was wrong and what was right that is why at that age they are tried in court as adults unless through disability or illness they are impaired in their judgement. Deleting his post and apologising when his job is at risk is too convenient and simply not enough. Those who call out racist, Xenophobes, bigots are not the onset fault.

No-one is faulting people for calling out racism, but your feelings seem to be that because he said some stupid racist things 7-9 years ago (with no evidence of similar behavior in the subsequent years) that he's an irredeemable racist to this day.

There is no evidence of racism in the last 7 years - not good enough. He has publically apologised, admitted it was wrong, and said that is not what he believes now - not good enough. What is good enough?

MikeB4

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#2615576 3-Dec-2020 13:23

I never said he is irredeemably racist. Refer a previous post by me ...

"I sincerely hope that Pablo Matera accepts what has happened realise that he has embarrassed his country, his sport, his team mates, his family and himself. I hope he learns from this and continues to make personal growth and improvements and genuinely changes his views. He can have a positive outcome and can come back and be a better person."

Paul1977

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#2615580 3-Dec-2020 13:31

MikeB4:

I never said he is irredeemably racist. Refer a previous post by me ...

"I sincerely hope that Pablo Matera accepts what has happened realise that he has embarrassed his country, his sport, his team mates, his family and himself. I hope he learns from this and continues to make personal growth and improvements and genuinely changes his views. He can have a positive outcome and can come back and be a better person."

Some of your other posts were harsher, but I'll concede that point.

I think the point that I, and many other posters, are trying to make is that it seems very possible that he is already a better person. It seems unnecessary and excessive to punish him for statements he made many years ago representing views he no longer believes - if he truly ever did believe them (see my post about kids saying stupid things to try to be cool and fit in).

EDIT: And at 17-20 you are just a kid, regardless of the legal definition.

GV27

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#2615586 3-Dec-2020 13:33

networkn:

I note you were happy to dismiss my experience(s), but others who have had experiences were not singled out. I do not deny the harm racism does in general, I do not support racism or what this man said. It was abhorrent and revolting and completely unacceptable.

This for me is the difference between when something should continue to be held against someone. Not saying things because they are unacceptable and will get you into trouble is different to not thinking them because you have reflected on mistakes that you have made and understand what about the underlying thought process lead you there in the first place.

I have said some horrendously offensive things to people, sometimes just to get a rise out of it. It's funny the things that bug you late at night or when you're at a low ebb, but the only thing you can do is decide that's not going to be how things are anymore and make it so. Very few people can say that they have never made a mistake, so we need to accept people will make them - and judge them on how much they learn from them.

Eva888

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#2615597 3-Dec-2020 13:57

Senecio:
Eva888:
One small example, think if everyone who made nasty or derogatory remarks about Trump lost their job for insulting him. How is that different to insulting fat people or Bolivians.

It’s very different. On the one hand we are criticising an individual for his own actions/words. No one is criticising Trump because of his race, gender, religion, colour, sexual orientation etc....

You’ve used a very poor example to support your argument.

As you said above, 'we are criticising an individual for his own actions/words.'
That’s exactly what Trump is vehemently criticised for... his words and actions. Also his hair and colouring, his speech and language skills. I believe he is dyslexic.

The point I was making is that social media tend to cherry pick how to treat people depending on if we currently like them or their opinions. The way people treated Trump is no different to a kid in a playground bullying and name calling another kid for saying something he doesn’t like or for stammering.

Social Media decided having a huge orange, fat, ugly blimp of Trump flying over London was acceptable. So then...drawing a disparaging picture of a school mate on a large kite and flying it over the school yard is also acceptable? That’s the lesson we give children. I am not condoning Trump, just using him as an example and comparison for double standards that exist.

We teach kids not to be bullies but If I swear, rant and name call and draw caricatures that insult, in front of my child because I don’t like someone or disagree with what they are saying, it gives my child the same lesson to use in the play ground. It doesn’t teach to respect and embrace other fellow humans with the deficiencies and faults that we all carry.

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