School uniform enigma

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#3185778 24-Jan-2024 09:32

Handle9:

..

My old high school has a generic uniform outside the school jersey and PE uniform. Navy shirt, navy shorts, black long socks and black shoes.

Given it's one of the most prestigious schools in the country it suggests that it's possible to have a school with a uniform that isn't branded up the wazoo.

Sounds like we may have gone to the same school (though, I thought our school shorts were black so maybe not - I went to Auckland Grammar).

We had to have a navy shirt (not a polo, a button up) and black shorts, black socks (with garters, or just insulation tape, to hold them up) and black leather shoes. This was nearly 40 years ago. School Jersey was the only branded thing, and IU only ever had one new one (rest were second hand). Did have to get a blazer when I was in a rep sports team, and a white shirt and school tie.

networkn

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#3185910 24-Jan-2024 15:37

Earbanean:

But kids do need to do what they're told in so many things. e.g. I don't want my kids (or anyone else's) thinking for themselves that they can drive with a high blood alcohol level. Obviously not wearing a uniform isn't life threatening, like drink driving, but the principle is the same. We need to learn to follow a good number of rules to be a responsible member of society.

I'm not sure if you've had kids, but just letting them think for themselves on everything would be a disaster. You'd end up with self-entitled little shites. Learning to follow some rules is part of raising kids and growing into a responsible adult.

I think we should teach our kids to think about stuff, especially when given an instruction or a rule, initially, to determine if that instruction is safe, and appropriate. Most kids aren't going to evaluate a school uniform as an unreasonable standard to meet.

Rikkitic

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#3185928 24-Jan-2024 16:42

networkn:

There is value in both IMO.

I think that it's a reach to suggest that it's harmful to wear uniforms.

Also that it's harmful not to (as in poor discipline, lack of respect for authority, bad grooming, whatever else gets used as an excuse for making kids dress up like North Koreans).

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#3186356 25-Jan-2024 12:32

My boys both went to a high school that had dropped the uniform the year before my eldest went.

Neither of them were particularly into fashion, so it didn't faze them at all, but it was a school where there were a lot of "individuals", who would dress like punks, or in furry costumes or whatever.

The school had rules and the kids mostly met those rules, within the parameters of still being an individual while not offending people.

My boys mostly just wore sports gear as that's what they were comfortable in and nobody said a word.

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#3186707 26-Jan-2024 09:48

Rikkitic:

networkn:

There is value in both IMO.

I think that it's a reach to suggest that it's harmful to wear uniforms.

Also that it's harmful not to (as in poor discipline, lack of respect for authority, bad grooming, whatever else gets used as an excuse for making kids dress up like North Koreans).

Really? :-)

networkn

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#3186733 26-Jan-2024 10:19

Rikkitic:

Also that it's harmful not to (as in poor discipline, lack of respect for authority, bad grooming, whatever else gets used as an excuse for making kids dress up like North Koreans).

If it's not harmful, but makes a student identifiable, included, and kept to a reasonable standard of dress, then I'm in favour of a reasonable non customised uniform.

As a kid from a very low income family, who always wore hand me downs and wasn't at a uniformed school, being mercilessly mocked for my cordoroys and bell bottoms etc, I feel that the stigma of even a second hand uniform is

much less than that of being significantly behind in what's currently being worn. A few months ago, a kid I know came home upset because a girl he liked and who clearly liked him back, basically told him, No iPhone, no date. Incredible.

I will admit though, that bullying of that type is less of a thing when it's made so much clearer at schools these days, and policed by the students themselves.

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#3186753 26-Jan-2024 12:08

networkn: A few months ago, a kid I know came home upset because a girl he liked and who clearly liked him back, basically told him, iPhone, no date.

Taking that literally the lady clearly has a preference for Android's use of open standards:

Computerworld: [Apple] locking down its modern messaging platform to its own ecosystem is a 100% self-serving move that flies directly in the face of everything it preaches.

In the case you made a typo and the lady said 'no iPhone no date' then you can tell the kid the lady was more likely concerned about incompatible messaging problems impeding communication than the fact the kid did not possess an iPhone.

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#3186759 26-Jan-2024 12:22

There aren't many things I'd like to import from my country/era of birth, but school uniform is definitely one of them.

1) It was uniform (pun intended) across the country. No matter if you were in the capital or in a remote village lost in the woods, the uniform for all schools was the same.

2) It was simple, functional, and inexpensive. Easy to budget for, easy to care for.

3) It was the great equalizer which was especially important for a country espousing equality.

I mean, a centrally planned economy was one of the downsides that came along with this uniform, but hey - you've got to take the bad with the good.

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#3187277 27-Jan-2024 13:48

Personally, I'm not a uniform enthusiast. We had them when I was at school. They were too cold in winter, too hot in summer, scratchy and uncomfortable, badly made, and ridiculously overpriced. Non-uniform jerseys and pants were available that were much more comfortable and cost about a quarter as much - to my mind there was clearly some sort of kickback arrangement between the sole exclusive supplier and the school. And several of the staff, who were widely disliked and can accurately be described as petty tyrants, seemed to delight in walking around bellowing at boys to pull their socks up and checking the girls skirt lengths.

Mercifully, we are in zone for one of the few non-uniform schools on the region, so my boy won't have to put up with that when he goes to college. He will be well clothed and comfortable, in what he wants to wear.

Some state-school uniforms are reported in the media to be well over $1,000, which is a huge strain for some families. The key question is whether it makes a difference to learning outcomes. If there isn't clear evidence that it does, which I understand there isn't, then I question what the point is?

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#3187642 28-Jan-2024 10:57

I attended schools where we had uniform (the school outfitter was Harrods in London) and later in my teens one where no uniform was required.

I was in hindsight glad of my very formal earlier schools. They taught me self discipline and routine in a way the later one certainly did not, although it had other benefits.

What I find objectionable more than uniform is “semi uniform” where there are no fixed choices for certain aspects.

It’s either uniform or it isn’t. The clue is in the word uniform!

Rikkitic

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#3187661 28-Jan-2024 12:01

What seems to get overlooked in any discussion of school uniforms, is that they are not actually necessary for anything. Food is necessary to fuel the brain, so school lunches are probably not a bad idea. Books are necessary for learning and the conveyance of information. Teachers (some of them) are necessary to act as guides. Some form of temperature regulation is necessary to maintain a comfortable environment. The only thing uniforms do is make everyone look uniform. They are not in any way necessary.

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#3187664 28-Jan-2024 12:09

Rikkitic: Books are necessary for learning and the conveyance of information.

Guessing you have not seen current curriculum requirements.
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Not sure about anyone else, but I have enough trouble picking one of many $40-60 shirts each day for work. Before you stack on shoes, dress pants and in some cases suits or silk ties.

If adulthoods counted their own work attire costs. Which is essentially a uniform these days in cases. Possibly wouldn't think school ones are so expensive.

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#3188727 31-Jan-2024 08:55

At work, we provide the team (FOC) with tidy, comfortable polo shirts with our logo. They cost the company about $25 each. Our logo is a registered trademark, however we don't charge a licence fee for it and that's why our work uniforms are cheap compared to a school uniform.

As others have commented, school uniforms used to be simple, cheap, hard-wearing garments. They were similar across schools. They could be handed down within families, or there was an informal market for used uniforms. Unfortunately, schools have identified them as a source of revenue and things have gone downhill since then.

I have zero objection to school uniforms. I don't think they brainwash kids, at all.

Many job specify a uniform or dress code for safety or image reasons. It's a fact of life.

Mike

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#3188729 31-Jan-2024 09:00

Oblivian:
Rikkitic: Books are necessary for learning and the conveyance of information.

Not sure about anyone else, but I have enough trouble picking one of many $40-60 shirts each day for work. Before you stack on shoes, dress pants and in some cases suits or silk ties.

I buy most of my clothes second hand. Last week at my local St John shop, I picked up a bunch of vintage Pierre Cardin shirts in mint condition for $12 a piece. Being old they are good quality and will last years.

Mike

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#3188731 31-Jan-2024 09:05

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but why are school uniforms so old-fashioned?

A good pair of modern shorts and a polo, with long pants in the winter and a nice jacket/coat/jumper would work in all cases.

Instead we have some state schools trying to look like private schools from the early 1900's UK, while yet others are drab grey short sleeved drill cotton/polyester shirts and dark grey shorts all year round (when it actually DOES get cold in NZ).

Why would anyone want to introduce a pinstripe blazer to go with ridiculous looking shorts and a dress shirt and tie in this modern age?

In summer it's too hot, in winter shorts are too cold and the whole outfit looks laughable. And it costs an absolute fortune.

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