Referendum Options

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924 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#554498 6-Dec-2011 15:15

*facepalm*

The maori party are being told to hold out as they may have more leverage.
More leverage to get their way. Unless they buckle to the pressure to be part of the government and Key plays hardball.
I can't see how it can be any clearer.

sleemanj

1490 posts

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#554501 6-Dec-2011 15:17

networkn: sleemanj: actually that is pretty much exactly what is happening. IF they led alone do you think they would make some of the deals they are making now?

They have two perfectly fine options. They can make a deal, or they can not.

They do not HAVE to do anything they don't want to.

Again, if they make a deal that the National voters don't like, then they are doing a disservice to the National voters, they are not in any way doing a disservice to MMP.

If they didn't make a deal and it resulted in another election, so be it.

And why are we having this debate anyway, MMP is here to stay, signed, sealed, and delivered.

(By "they" I refer of course to the National party)

---
James Sleeman
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TheUngeek

924 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#554503 6-Dec-2011 15:19

Not exactly.
It is still up for review. Changes may result

Byrned

455 posts

Ultimate Geek

#554504 6-Dec-2011 15:22

The Greens were in Coalition with Labour for how long? How many 'shots' did they call?

Actually, the greens have never been in power as Labour presumed (rightly as it turned out) that they would side with them, and wouldn't need to give them anything for it - always the bridesmaid...

If you ever wanted to talk about a wasted vote, this would be a good one to look at, afterall, what can you really achieve outside of government?

sleemanj

1490 posts

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#554506 6-Dec-2011 15:26

Byrned:
If you ever wanted to talk about a wasted vote, this would be a good one to look at, afterall, what can you really achieve outside of government?

For starters, the Home Insulation Scheme (with National) and Section 59 Repeal (with both).

Just because you are in opposition doesn't mean you don't still have good ideas that other parties will work with you on.

---
James Sleeman
I sell lots of stuff for electronic enthusiasts...

crackrdbycracku

1168 posts

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#554517 6-Dec-2011 15:42

sleemanj:
Byrned:
If you ever wanted to talk about a wasted vote, this would be a good one to look at, afterall, what can you really achieve outside of government?

For starters, the Home Insulation Scheme (with National) and Section 59 Repeal (with both).

Just because you are in opposition doesn't mean you don't still have good ideas that other parties will work with you on.

The Section 59 Repeal was just about where I lost all hope for the Greens.

It had nothing to do with the environment and pretty much played into the 'Greens want to run your whole life from Government' fears that I used to think the electorate was silly to hold. Oh, and is was supposed to 'do something' about the horrific child abuse stories we all see in the paper, and seems to have failed miserably there.

Home Insulation Scheme was a great idea.

I guess all hope isn't lost but where is my National Cycle-way? I want to ride my bicycle, I wan to ride my bike. I want to ride my bicycle, I want to ride it where I like.

CrackedByCracku

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networkn

Networkn
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#554519 6-Dec-2011 15:47

I don't understand what a minister outside of parliament actually does?

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gzt

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#554524 6-Dec-2011 15:54

networkn: [snip] actually that is pretty much exactly what is happening. IF they led alone do you think they would make some of the deals they are making now?

For example?

My take is most of what Key is giving Banks has been part of National Party philosophy for a while. Later on this week I don't see Key giving the Maori Party anything inconsistent with National Party values and policy. Peter Dunne might be the exception to the rule, blocking a potential sale of RNZ and raising the possibility of continuing TVNZ-7.

gzt

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#554525 6-Dec-2011 16:02

networkn: I don't understand what a minister outside of parliament actually does?

Minister "outside Cabinet" to be precise.

"Ministers outside Cabinet from parliamentary parties supporting the government may be bound by collective responsibility only in relation to their particular portfolios. Under these arrangements, when such Ministers speak about issues within their portfolios, they speak for the government and as part of the government. When they speak about matters outside their portfolios, however, they may speak as political party leaders or members of Parliament rather than as Ministers, and do not necessarily represent the government position. When such Ministers represent the government internationally, they speak for the government on all issues that foreign governments may raise with them in their capacity as Ministers"

From: http://cabinetmanual.cabinetoffice.govt.nz/5.11#5.27

networkn

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#554526 6-Dec-2011 16:03

gzt: If they led alone do you think they would even be conversing with ACT at this point? Seriously?

United Future is a whole other thing.

I don't see the ACT education policy being part of National's key initiative.

networkn

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#554529 6-Dec-2011 16:05

gzt:
networkn: I don't understand what a minister outside of parliament actually does?

Minister "outside Cabinet" to be precise.

"Ministers outside Cabinet from parliamentary parties supporting the government may be bound by collective responsibility only in relation to their particular portfolios. Under these arrangements, when such Ministers speak about issues within their portfolios, they speak for the government and as part of the government. When they speak about matters outside their portfolios, however, they may speak as political party leaders or members of Parliament rather than as Ministers, and do not necessarily represent the government position. When such Ministers represent the government internationally, they speak for the government on all issues that foreign governments may raise with them in their capacity as Ministers"

From: http://cabinetmanual.cabinetoffice.govt.nz/5.11#5.27

Thanks, that's great.

dontpanic42

1574 posts

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#554538 6-Dec-2011 16:15

The fact is, by definition, National alone did NOT get a majority. They only got 48%.
This is precisely why MMP needs to stay; to keep any one party from governing alone when they did NOT get a majority.
If National had achieved a majority, there would be no argument.

I personally hope that if it does turn out the Maori Party holds the balance of power after the special votes, that they stick to their guns and oppose asset sales.

crackrdbycracku

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#554540 6-Dec-2011 16:17

networkn: I don't understand what a minister outside of parliament actually does?

Sorry to be picky but I think you mean Minister outside Cabinet. They are MPs and therefore 'inside' parliament.

Cabinet is the top of Executive Branch of the New Zealand Govt. No 'big' decision gets made without Cabinet agreeing to it. All the ministers in Cabinet get a say, the Cabinet collectively decides and then an Cabinet Memo is issued with the decision. For example, all the recent Christchurch earthquake decisions with regard to what is going on with land purchasing and such would have required Cabinet approval.

Having said that Cabinet ministers, individually, also have responsibility for a Department, also called a portfolio. The Department CEO actually does the management but the Minister is the final arbiter of 'What' as opposed to 'How' of departmental business.

Because of this most Ministers are inside Cabinet because what IRD does, for example, affects what happens at the Ministry of Social Development or Health. So in Cabinet they can all have a say and collectively decide what to do.

Ministers outside Cabinet are responsible for department business but don't get to sit in cabinet. They are sometime the Number Two for a particular department or the portfolio may not be significant enough to deserve a cabinet table seat. These positions are often seen as training grounds for future cabinet ministers. These post are also given to coalition partners, they get a bit of power. But not too much.

The job is to work on the business of the department, whatever that may be, and make recommendations to people with Cabinet seats to actually get stuff through.

There is a pile of work to do in running a country, even a small one like NZ. The fact that some MPs are lazy or more interested in getting headlines than actually doing work does not mean that there isn't work.

CrackedByCracku

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Byrned

455 posts

Ultimate Geek

#554550 6-Dec-2011 16:38

sleemanj:
Byrned:
If you ever wanted to talk about a wasted vote, this would be a good one to look at, afterall, what can you really achieve outside of government?

For starters, the Home Insulation Scheme (with National) and Section 59 Repeal (with both).

Just because you are in opposition doesn't mean you don't still have good ideas that other parties will work with you on.

Point taken.But my other point still stands, they have never been part of a government, and I believe if they centred themselves and were willing to work with either of the major parties (even if it meant on some policies agreeing to disagree) they would achieve a lot more, and would probably get a larger percentage of votes. How many more seats might they have gotten if some centrist voters actually believed there was a real possibility that they would enter into a formal coalition with the right?

TheUngeek

924 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#554557 6-Dec-2011 16:44

Stuff it all
Reinstate the Queen I say

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