Should New Zealand invest in nuclear power plants?

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#3228776 10-May-2024 15:45

wellygary

i'm also pretty sure that grid scale solar is cheaper than house by house roof panels

They both have pros and cons. Rooftop solar reduces the need for additional transmission infrastructure because the power is already there in the local grid. But grid scale is cheaper and more easily controlled.

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tweake

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#3228778 10-May-2024 16:09

Paul1977:

Short term the government needs to mandate that power companies buy excess power from home solar at a reasonable rate instead of the huge difference there is now (I believe currently they pay a tiny amount to buy excess power during the day, then charge way more to sell it back to the same customer at night). This would create a huge uptick in the number of people installing solar because you could reap way more benefit without the added expense of a battery.

i can understand the power co's position, they buy at wholesale, sell at retail. if you force them to buy more expensive power they will simply pass that cost on. so the overall effect will be people without solar will be paying for people with solar. typically its the poor (or squeezed middle) who can't afford solar so they get screwed.

i think its better to wait for cheaper battery tech so you use what you generate.

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#3228781 10-May-2024 16:12

On Nuclear. It is simply too expensive for NZ. Like way, way too expensive. We are a small country, prone to natural disasters, with no nuclear industry and limited heavy engineering industry. We are blessed with some of the best renewable energy resources in the world, meaning that electricity prices are relatively cheap here (by global standards).

There are so many new power generation proposals in NZ, that transpower has set up a queuing system for new connection applications. List here:

https://static.transpower.co.nz/public/2023-03/New%20Generation%20Connection%20Pipeline.xlsx?VersionId=90T_UkLUW7ktmRGyMuiHef79azms3OnW

Also important to not blow the transpower warning notice out of proportion.

https://static.transpower.co.nz/public/interfaces/wrn/WRN%20Insufficient%20Generation%20offers%20to%20meet%20demand%20National%205374984112.pdf?VersionId=V985v6SooTPKnu5vzPm6.5QFK1eHNIFN

It is simply flagging that they are projecting a risk that they might drop under N-1 redundancy, meaning they may need to shed load if something big trips offline. This is intended for companies in the industry to take the listed actions (i.e. offer more energy), not for the media to freak out and the public to start proposing nuclear power.

Is we don't get close to the limit now and then, it means we have overbuilt our infrastructure that all power users ultimately pay for. Should note this event was an unseasonal cold snap when we have a lot of generation on scheduled outages, and ultimately didn't even result in a massive spike in wholesale prices (last nights spike was way bigger).

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#3228783 10-May-2024 16:15

tweake:

i can understand the power co's position, they buy at wholesale, sell at retail. if you force them to buy more expensive power they will simply pass that cost on. so the overall effect will be people without solar will be paying for people with solar. typically its the poor (or squeezed middle) who can't afford solar so they get screwed.

i think its better to wait for cheaper battery tech so you use what you generate.

Fair call. How about they pay the wholesale rate for power back to the consumer?

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#3228787 10-May-2024 16:25

networkn:

Fair call. How about they pay the wholesale rate for power back to the consumer?

There are already retailers who buy at very close to retail rates. For us the difference between the sell rate and the buy rate is about 3c/kWh. Makes it not worth the cost of a home battery.

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#3228790 10-May-2024 16:29

wellygary:

Jase2985:

I think most developments over xx number of houses should have small scale distributed solar along with small scale battery systems installed to, 1 help those in the houses with their power bills, and 2 offset peak demand on the grid via the batteries. That should be subsidized by the government.

Why should the Government be involved, If it saves money for the owner surely that is incentive enough,

As for batteries, you get a significant better bang for you buck with Grid scaled batteries verses household scale,

"The price goes down to $475 per kWh for even larger 100+ Megapack projects, which are actually becoming quite common."
https://electrek.co/2022/09/14/tesla-megapack-update-specs-price/

a 13.5 kwh Powerwall pricie at that time was ~$800/kwh
https://la-solargroup.com/cost-of-tesla-solar-panels/

i'm also pretty sure that grid scale solar is cheaper than house by house roof panels

Im not sure if you understand what small scale distributed solar (community solar) is by your comments.

Say 40 houses are built in an intensification project, removed 8 houses or what ever, then they should have solar on each house and the energy is pooled/averaged for all the houses involved, same deal with the batteries, put in 750-1000kWh of storage for those houses to use in the peak periods. The houses all benefit from it.

But without subsidies none of this will happen as there is no incentive. We just have to deal with "save power between 7am and 9am".

By encouraging people to reduce their usage during those periods by means of a battery also helps out the generators by not needing to have to supply that same amount all at the same time. We are unlikely to get huge bumps in generation any time soon, as those projects all take time.

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#3228792 10-May-2024 16:35

networkn:

tweake:

i can understand the power co's position, they buy at wholesale, sell at retail. if you force them to buy more expensive power they will simply pass that cost on. so the overall effect will be people without solar will be paying for people with solar. typically its the poor (or squeezed middle) who can't afford solar so they get screwed.

i think its better to wait for cheaper battery tech so you use what you generate.

Fair call. How about they pay the wholesale rate for power back to the consumer?

i thought they already did. there was a big stink about it a decade or two ago when they stopped buying it at retail price. while i'm not up on current prices, i'm skeptical of peoples claims. i've had people quote figures that simply where not true.

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#3228793 10-May-2024 16:35

SaltyNZ:

There are already retailers who buy at very close to retail rates. For us the difference between the sell rate and the buy rate is about 3c/kWh. Makes it not worth the cost of a home battery.

Who are you with? Our buy back rate was around 3c per KW and my FIL is getting around 4.5c.

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#3228794 10-May-2024 16:39

Scott3:

We are blessed with some of the best renewable energy resources in the world, meaning that electricity prices are relatively cheap here (by global standards).

last time i looked we where at least double the cost if not triple.

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#3228796 10-May-2024 16:43

networkn:

SaltyNZ:

There are already retailers who buy at very close to retail rates. For us the difference between the sell rate and the buy rate is about 3c/kWh. Makes it not worth the cost of a home battery.

Who are you with? Our buy back rate was around 3c per KW and my FIL is getting around 4.5c.

Need to look around, can get as high as 17c/kWh buyback on some plans, some around the 12C/kWh and the lower end is about 8c/kWh
Each plan has tradeoffs such as what your Peak rates are, or no off peak rates but you can get some pretty good deals out there if you are able to run your numbers

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#3228797 10-May-2024 16:46

tweake:

Scott3:

We are blessed with some of the best renewable energy resources in the world, meaning that electricity prices are relatively cheap here (by global standards).

last time i looked we where at least double the cost if not triple.

Not sure where you have been looking

https://www.energycouncil.com.au/news/international-electricity-price-comparisons/

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#3228801 10-May-2024 17:06

From a health perspective there is already a cyclotron in Wellington and one planned for Auckland. They are more focused on radiology is my understanding, but there other isotopes that still come from Australia and some are used in a pharmaceutical context. Most of these are isotopes of much smaller atoms than would be used in traditional fission reactions.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclotron
https://www.cyclotek.com/facilities-details/wellington-new-zealand/
https://cyclowest.com/about/

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#3228805 10-May-2024 17:24

Jase2985:

Not sure where you have been looking

https://www.energycouncil.com.au/news/international-electricity-price-comparisons/

ok, Purchasing power parities (PPP), thats what makes the difference. it turns 33c/kwh nzd to 18c/kwh usd.

mattwnz

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#3228810 10-May-2024 17:33

Being in an earthquake zone, and seeing what happened in Japan with Fukushima, no. Although if one were to be built, Auckland would be where it would need to be built. NZ has many other options that are renewable and safe including wind, PV geothermal and hydro. The biggest problems NZ has is increasing the population significantly in a very short period of time, without investing in infrastructure, and this goes far beyond electricity. EV sales have dropped through the floor and it will take a very long time to switch to an EV fleet baed on current numbers. Many people are instead going the hybrid route. Many people will end up installing solar on their roofs too. One of the big problems IMO has been the resource management act and all the red tape and costs to build infrastructure. UK only generates about 15% from nuclear, so it isn't a miracle solution, otherwise they would have most of their generation via nuclear.

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#3228813 10-May-2024 17:38

Jase2985:

networkn:

Who are you with? Our buy back rate was around 3c per KW and my FIL is getting around 4.5c.

Need to look around, can get as high as 17c/kWh buyback on some plans, some around the 12C/kWh and the lower end is about 8c/kWh
Each plan has tradeoffs such as what your Peak rates are, or no off peak rates but you can get some pretty good deals out there if you are able to run your numbers

If it needs a plan, then the buy prices could be used to offset the sell back price, to make the sell back prices seem higher. But the sell back price is only around 1/4 to 1/3 the price the consumer buys it at, which is poor IMO

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