Maoris beating their kids. What the hell happened!

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#431390 26-Jan-2011 13:40

wreck90: @kiwinz, you spout a bunch of unsubstantiated nonsense.

You have no evidence, and pluck imaginary facts out of the air to support your beliefs.

There is more fantasy in your post than a Harry Potter novel .

If anything, there is less physical discipline than when I was a child (removal of corporal punishment, anti-smacking law etc)...maybe the increasing violence in todays society is reflecting the removal of physical discipline.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/20/42/43589854.pdf

http://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/newsroom/media-releases/news/2006/pr-2006-07-27-2-child-death-from-maltreatment.pdf

Here is just a couple but I am sure you will not read them as they will not fit your model

MikeB4

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#431394 26-Jan-2011 13:45

sittingduckz:

a. The unresolved Treaty issues and claims
b. The still abuse of the Treaty
c. Maori literacy rates
d. Maori health issues
e. Maori Child mortality rates

And on general terms.

a. Child health issues for all children,
b. Child safety ( one of the worst in the OECD)
d. Family Violence across all sector of society
e. Alcohol and drug abuse across all sectors of society
f. High drop out rates from schools

a. Possibly (Has no real effect on violence?)
b. What??
c. Maori have the same education, don't they??
d. Genetically aren't we the same
e. My point extactly

a. Has a lot to do with parenting
b. Also has a lot to do with parenting
c. Missing
d. Yes but to what ratio
e. Again to what ratio
f. Come down to parenting

There are already so many education/health centres & funding in place for Maori

Parents can put GP's in all Rural and small towns? and provide such units Starship hospital with all the needed equipement. Plus all the additional GP's in places like South Auckland?

People say that Child safety is the responsibility of the parent and yes that is true but it is also the responsibility
of the wider community.

oxnsox

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#431399 26-Jan-2011 13:54

This is a great debate and in principle I'd agree with both KiwiNZ and LookingUp...

Lets not get into a semantic debate about definitions of 'pat','smack' or 'hit'. Isn't the issue more about the discipline of children in a manner which teaches them to respect the authority of their parents and elders over their peers. Which teaches them that they are responsible for their actions (consequences). And teaches it in way that doesn't undermine their own self-worth. It's about instilling acceptable community and society values in our children.

How this is achieved is different is every society/culture/household, and who am I to decide which method is best for your children... Sure we need guidelines/rules/laws to determine what our society finds unacceptable, and they're bound to be acceptable to all. But we need a point of reference, whether you personally choose to use it or not.

So is it possible to hone the issue down to a single point of definition???? Respect?, Responsibility?, Selfworth?, I doubt it.

Education... will that help? Trying to teach people to respect others and take responsibility? Or haven't we been trying to do that for...like... ever?

And should I have to take responsibility for paying for the education and welfare systems to spend the generations (and billions) it will take to work through initiatives that will be outdated before they're allowed to complete a measurable an effective cycle??

Sure there are issues in NZ, just as there are in every other country in the world. Are we any better or worse? Personally I believe the quality of out social systems means we have a very good reporting structure which means we probably more accurately report abuse stats than most other countries... but it doesn't excuse that it happens.

We need to find a way to help people break the cycle they've got themselves into, whether they put them-self there or not.

Money and social workers don't buy self-esteem any more than they help you buy your way out of poverty, but they are part of the solution... the solution we'll continue to pay for because we have individual freedom to decide what's right and wrong for us in our society. And despite what you may think is right for you and the rest of us... I may simply choose to disagree..... and thats the reality... our need to be collective individuals is the problem

bazzer

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#431420 26-Jan-2011 14:46

It's interesting to me that the people that are so pro-corporal punishment appear to have been disciplined this way themselves. The fact that smacking a child is the only way they can imagine being effective discipline is a sad indictment of their own upbringing.

gchiu

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#431422 26-Jan-2011 15:03

Selection bias. The ones who survived and didn't get emotionally damaged feel that this validates this form of upbringing. Those that were damaged are either in jail, or too busy beating the crap out of their own kids to worry about posting on some internet forum.

oxnsox

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#431423 26-Jan-2011 15:05

bazzer: It's interesting to me that the people that are so pro-corporal punishment appear to have been disciplined this way themselves. The fact that smacking a child is the only way they can imagine being effective discipline is a sad indictment of their own upbringing.

I believe that is a false assumption on your part.

There are plenty of folk out there who may have been given a 'boot up the bum', or 'clip around the ear' and accept that these actions made them stand still long enough, as a kid, to actually think about what they'd done and make the decision not to do it again. As a kid who knows if that process was based on not getting another 'clip', not wanting to upset Ma or Pa, or simply having seen that 'yep they had done the wrong thing'.

In these instances the process worked, it didn't damage them for life, and it doesn't mean they have a propensity for, or affinity with, punishment as a discipline tool they will (or may) use when it comes to dealing with their own children.

To presume that there is only one way to effectively address any issue is rather short sighted... and perhaps thats part of the problem

LookingUp

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#431427 26-Jan-2011 15:22

bazzer: It's interesting to me that the people that are so pro-corporal punishment appear to have been disciplined this way themselves. The fact that smacking a child is the only way they can imagine being effective discipline is a sad indictment of their own upbringing.

A good question. From experience, I can atest to a short sharp shock being more effective in changing my behaviour than the prospect of a bit of "down time" or temporary loss of a toy or whatever. Those tended to be the first and least effective deterents, but one soon learnt that the next escalation was painful, and therefore to be avoided.

I would suggest that those that had a negative experience with this type of upbringing did not have it applied to them in a fair and open manner. I never got a smack without having asked for it - quite literally by repeating an action I'd been specifically asked not to.

I have nothing but the utmost respect and appreciation for how my parents raised me. We come from a working class background and I mixed with all types while growing up, and would say that I had the privilidge of getting to know a pretty diverse range of people as a result of it. What I saw in this upbringing was that those that didn't recieve effective "alignment" at an early age would generally go off the rails at some point in an attempt to find boundaries, and on occasion this was tragic.

Would I be better off for not having had the occasional smack as a reminder of what's not acceptable? - I very much doubt it.

To moderate this - I in no way condone corporal punishment for the sake of it, and for those on which it has no effect, other means need to found and used. We all remember those few from school that seemed to enjoy a strapping as a way of getting attention or koudos for toughness, and that's the point at which skill is required to assess the situation and employ an alternative. In that situation I totally agree it's inappropriate, ineffective, and potentially backward.

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bazzer

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#431428 26-Jan-2011 15:26

oxnsox:
bazzer: It's interesting to me that the people that are so pro-corporal punishment appear to have been disciplined this way themselves. The fact that smacking a child is the only way they can imagine being effective discipline is a sad indictment of their own upbringing.

I believe that is a false assumption on your part.

There are plenty of folk out there who may have been given a 'boot up the bum', or 'clip around the ear' and accept that these actions made them stand still long enough, as a kid, to actually think about what they'd done and make the decision not to do it again. As a kid who knows if that process was based on not getting another 'clip', not wanting to upset Ma or Pa, or simply having seen that 'yep they had done the wrong thing'.

In these instances the process worked, it didn't damage them for life, and it doesn't mean they have a propensity for, or affinity with, punishment as a discipline tool they will (or may) use when it comes to dealing with their own children.

To presume that there is only one way to effectively address any issue is rather short sighted... and perhaps thats part of the problem

There's no assumption on my part. People (such as LookingUp) have said essentially "I got hit as a kid. It didn't do me any harm. It's a valid form of discipline. It's more effective than other forms of discipline". The fact that they imagine smacking to be such a good method of discipline is solely because of their own experiences as a child. I mean, why not? They got smacked and it caused them to sort themselves out.

Their experience doesn't legitimise the practice as a whole. There's a huge grey area so why not just find a better way? I don't have kids, but if and when I do, I'll be doing my best not to resort to smacking. What about weak electric shocks or a magical headband to deliver short-term pain. Would they be acceptable to you?

bazzer

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#431434 26-Jan-2011 15:37

LookingUp: A good question. From experience, I can atest to a short sharp shock being more effective in changing my behaviour than the prospect of a bit of "down time" or temporary loss of a toy or whatever. Those tended to be the first and least effective deterents, but one soon learnt that the next escalation was painful, and therefore to be avoided.

I would suggest that those that had a negative experience with this type of upbringing did not have it applied to them in a fair and open manner. I never got a smack without having asked for it - quite literally by repeating an action I'd been specifically asked not to.

I have nothing but the utmost respect and appreciation for how my parents raised me. We come from a working class background and I mixed with all types while growing up, and would say that I had the privilidge of getting to know a pretty diverse range of people as a result of it. What I saw in this upbringing was that those that didn't recieve effective "alignment" at an early age would generally go off the rails at some point in an attempt to find boundaries, and on occasion this was tragic.

Would I be better off for not having had the occasional smack as a reminder of what's not acceptable? - I very much doubt it.

To moderate this - I in no way condone corporal punishment for the sake of it, and for those on which it has no effect, other means need to found and used. We all remember those few from school that seemed to enjoy a strapping as a way of getting attention or koudos for toughness, and that's the point at which skill is required to assess the situation and employ an alternative. In that situation I totally agree it's inappropriate, ineffective, and potentially backward.

Or maybe, and I mean no disrespect, your parents didn't have the effective parenting skills required to teach you the lessons you learned without the odd smack? Of course, you came out better off, so you will most likely continue the practice with your own children.

Woudn't it be better for everyone to have the skills to bring up children without hitting them? So that they don't grow up thinking they "asked for it" and that the unruly kids could do with some "aligning"? Obviously, you were never physically hurt as a result of your parents' smacks, but you really don't think you could've been brought up without misbehaving and without being smacked? To me, that's the biggest damage you suffered! Aren't we better than that? Isn't there a better way to teach kids?

LookingUp

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#431435 26-Jan-2011 15:39

To be clear on this - I was never "hit" as a kid, but did receive an occasional smack when well warranted. Smacking is effective in that it delivers a sharp reminder and leaves no permanent damage. My definition of a "hit" is one that has potential for significant physical injury, and is totally unacceptable under any circumstance.

I am NOT advocating violence (ie. acts of emotion) of any type, but I don't believe that a smack issued for legitimate reasons is a violent action.

Things are LookingUp.... A photo from my back yard :-)

oxnsox

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#431438 26-Jan-2011 15:45

Just a thought folks.... some of the approaches that are being promoted could be seen as generational.

eg: I was a primary school kid in the sixties. We didn't have all the technology thats out there now. Television, when we eventually got one, wasn't on-air 24/7 and our viewing hours were well controlled by my folks. We spent most of our time playing outside, falling out of trees (that hurt and taught us something), mucking about and falling into the river (that hurt too as it was cold) and throwing things at our neighbours and playmates (sometimes this hurt if the object was heavy enough). We got eggs from our chooks (who'd peck us), the milk and bread from the box at the gate, and sometimes we'd slip over on the ice on the puddles in the morning and break a milkbottle or get the bread dirty (we learnt this wasn't good for breakfast).

Like LookUp, if we really really misbehaved at school there was 'the strap' (and later 'the cane') but we all well knew where the boundaries were to avoid this. If we choose to break 'the rules' we all knew the consequences.... my school life and growing up wasn't about 'My Rights', it was about respecting everyone else's when you should and hoping to get away with it when you didn't.

Maybe your primary school period was at a different time and location and had different values and guidelines........

Nokia2012

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#431441 26-Jan-2011 15:47

I think the title of this topic is very offensive. I am Maori

maverick

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WorldxChange

#431451 26-Jan-2011 15:57

The Op who started the Topic was Maori as well expresessing concern at the high number of stats around the topic title, but the discussion is looking at points of view around "is this a race / cultural , sco-economic problem" any thing that brings this topic to the fore on the appauling treatment we are inflictling upon our children I aplaud, I personally don't care if they are black , white , yellow rich or poor the stats are horrific... I find it offensive if we hide behind race or culture and let this continue.

I do see how you may find the title offensive but the content is generally pretty well discussed without being offensive.

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

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MikeB4

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#431464 26-Jan-2011 16:09

Nokia2012: I think the title of this topic is very offensive. I am Maori

Agreed the Thread Title should be changed to...

'New Zealand beating their kids..What the hell is happening'.

Geese

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#431465 26-Jan-2011 16:13

Yeah I got the strap at school (1990), the only person in my age group to get it. Has never heard of anyone else locally getting it either. I learnt my lesson! That was the last deliberate naughty thing I ever did at school.

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