Gareth Morgan is a genius

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#1685419 9-Dec-2016 17:11

mudguard:

Geektastic:

"By comparison, the top 3 per cent of individual income earners, earning more than $150,000 a year, pay 24 per cent of all tax received."

So why there is such a downer on the well paid in NZ I have no idea.

I don't think anyone begrudges the amount of tax high salaried earners pay. It's those that are self employed (farmers, builders etc) who may not pay their fair share. The PAYE employee cannot really avoid their tax obligation, but the under the table cash work, new 'work' vehicles etc that self employed perhaps can manipulate is another issue. I'm not really sure how that additional income can be gathered. Unless you removed income tax altogether and just found another method.

These 'work' vehicles are subject to Fringe Benefit tax. So in theory should be taxed.

mudguard

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#1685420 9-Dec-2016 17:12

benokobi:

And the idea that people making higher incomes should be paying even more tax. Taxing people on owning luxury cars is also ridiculous. Already paying 33% income tax before paying GST or FBT on the car, anything more than this is just cruel.

I'm guessing that if something like this came in, the personal tax rates would drop, that was idea. To reduce the cost of housing, move money into more productive areas.

rmt38

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#1685424 9-Dec-2016 17:26

mudguard:

I'm guessing that if something like this came in, the personal tax rates would drop, that was idea. To reduce the cost of housing, move money into more productive areas.

Lol. The problem is you're guessing. At this point, saying oh yeah, i think it makes sense they would do that if they do this, is just you saying that. They haven't said it and there's no road from here to getting this envy tax in play laid out for us to understand.

No-one but Gareth knows how this will play out, and he won't know exactly how, until you put your faith in him as your glorious leader down the path to (solving) inequality, and he gets to play kingmaker.

This is crazy Gareth doing what he does best. And it gets crazier the more people assume how it will work.

Fred99

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#1685425 9-Dec-2016 17:29

Geektastic:

This article is interesting on the subject of who pays into the tax system v who takes out of the tax system

"By comparison, the top 3 per cent of individual income earners, earning more than $150,000 a year, pay 24 per cent of all tax received."

So why there is such a downer on the well paid in NZ I have no idea.

That's oft quoted.

Total tax revenue (Year to June 2016) was $ 74 billion.
24% of that is about $18 billion. I guarantee that the top 3% of income earners, probably fewer than 50,000 people do not contribute $18 billion, or an average of $360,000 in tax each per annum.
Personal income tax is only about < 40% of total tax revenue (the rest is company tax, GST, withholding tax, excises, duties etc., government also make about another $20 billion in dividends, sale of goods (electricity) and services etc).

The 24% figure is 24% of income tax, it's about $7.5 billion and only about 10% of total tax revenue, about 8% of total revenue.

I suspect it's also a "theoretical" figure based on tax which would be payable on gross income rather than what's actually paid on declared taxable income.

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#1685426 9-Dec-2016 17:34

mudguard:

Geektastic:

"By comparison, the top 3 per cent of individual income earners, earning more than $150,000 a year, pay 24 per cent of all tax received."

So why there is such a downer on the well paid in NZ I have no idea.

I don't think anyone begrudges the amount of tax high salaried earners pay. It's those that are self employed (farmers, builders etc) who may not pay their fair share. The PAYE employee cannot really avoid their tax obligation, but the under the table cash work, new 'work' vehicles etc that self employed perhaps can manipulate is another issue. I'm not really sure how that additional income can be gathered. Unless you removed income tax altogether and just found another method.

AFAIC if 3% are paying 24%, that is an UNFAIR share, not a fair share, regardless of how they earned it.

mudguard

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#1685430 9-Dec-2016 17:41

rmt38:

Lol. The problem is you're guessing. At this point, saying oh yeah, i think it makes sense they would do that if they do this, is just you saying that. They haven't said it and there's no road from here to getting this envy tax in play laid out for us to understand.

I'm fairly certain he outlined it in his book. Along with a universal income for everyone, in lieu of super, DPB and other benefits. I'm not sure it's an envy tax. Is it skill or luck that homeowners (mainly in Auckland) have enjoyed such high rises in the value of their homes? What do you suggest for those coming in afterwards? Their children? Presumably if they're like my parents there will be nothing being left! Which is of course is absolutely fine for them.

Surely cranking up the OCR would a rather effective if not blunt tool. Those big mortgages would hurt at 8-9%.

I still wonder if there is any kind of correction for high house prices, it may come from the likes of civil servants, teachers, police etc, who will turn down jobs in Auckland and cause a shortage.

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#1685432 9-Dec-2016 17:48

mudguard:

rmt38:

Lol. The problem is you're guessing. At this point, saying oh yeah, i think it makes sense they would do that if they do this, is just you saying that. They haven't said it and there's no road from here to getting this envy tax in play laid out for us to understand.

I'm fairly certain he outlined it in his book. Along with a universal income for everyone, in lieu of super, DPB and other benefits. I'm not sure it's an envy tax. Is it skill or luck that homeowners (mainly in Auckland) have enjoyed such high rises in the value of their homes? What do you suggest for those coming in afterwards? Their children? Presumably if they're like my parents there will be nothing being left! Which is of course is absolutely fine for them.

Surely cranking up the OCR would a rather effective if not blunt tool. Those big mortgages would hurt at 8-9%.

I still wonder if there is any kind of correction for high house prices, it may come from the likes of civil servants, teachers, police etc, who will turn down jobs in Auckland and cause a shortage.

Is there a correction? Work hard and join that 3% so it grows and is no longer only 3%...

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#1685434 9-Dec-2016 17:56

frankv:

Hammerer:

It is not "legalised theft" to avoid tax. It is evading tax that is illegal.

Evading tax is theft. Avoiding tax is legalised theft... if it means you are paying less than your share. "Paying your share" is an ethical decision, not a legal one.

You're heading into shark infested water there...

Is it ethical to have 10 children you can't afford and expect the taxpayer to fund that through tax credits, free medical etc?

Is it ethical to sit at home not working when you could be working? Indeed, is it ethical to do an easy low paid job when you have the intelligence to do a higher paid one and pay more tax as part of your ethical 'fair share'?

Is it ethical to have NO children and thus not contribute to the future earnings of NZ inc?

Is it ethical to live in a 3 bedroom house when you only need 1?

Is it ethical to keep ANY of the money you earn when there are other people who need it more?

Is it ethical to have empty rooms in your house when people sleep in boxes under bridges?

There is just no way you will EVER in 10 million years convince a majority of human beings to cease working to benefit themselves before others. Humans are not wired that way - the wolves will always eat the sheep.

rmt38

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#1685435 9-Dec-2016 17:56

mudguard:

I'm fairly certain he outlined it in his book. Along with a universal income for everyone, in lieu of super, DPB and other benefits. I'm not sure it's an envy tax. Is it skill or luck that homeowners (mainly in Auckland) have enjoyed such high rises in the value of their homes? What do you suggest for those coming in afterwards? Their children? Presumably if they're like my parents there will be nothing being left! Which is of course is absolutely fine for them.

Surely cranking up the OCR would a rather effective if not blunt tool. Those big mortgages would hurt at 8-9%.

I still wonder if there is any kind of correction for high house prices, it may come from the likes of civil servants, teachers, police etc, who will turn down jobs in Auckland and cause a shortage.

Yes, but he hasn't said, "whatever I write in my book relates to this inequality tax", as far as I know. And in various ways, it is an envy tax. It pulls everyone down by sucking away at their hard work, and achievements, leaching away at the results of efforts. As someone else said at least once, it's an attack on the middle class.

I suggest that if you choose to live in a highly populated area, you need to increase housing. And this means that views will be obstructed, and buildings will go upwards, and apartments should logically be the order of the day. Choosing to be a nimby and obstructing this is being this problem - I know I wouldn't like it either if I were in their situation, but it shouldn't be the countries problem that it has to happen. You have to accept that if you own a residential property with a yard in Auckland, you are the problem due to the situation that can't be solved. It's simple. Start right beside Key's house for all I care. And then beside Cunliffe's house. Then beside all the properties owned by politicians from all parties, whether in Wellington or Auckland.

I don't think there will ever be any correction. It will only get worse. The envy tax (I call it that because I forget what it's called as well) will mean that people without the finances (those less well off) will be driven out - correct me if I am wrong? These properties are in demand for a reason. Improvements in the transport system will alleviate some of the pain, but otherwise people will put up with it like they do now. I used to sit in that traffic in, in the morning, from Waitakere.

rmt38

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#1685436 9-Dec-2016 17:58

Geektastic:

There is just no way you will EVER in 10 million years convince a majority of human beings to cease working to benefit themselves before others. Humans are not wired that way - the wolves will always eat the sheep.

How much more would we have respected Gareth Morgan, ignoring that there's so much undefined and this tax is generally illogical in that state, if he had chosen to pay the full tax he can pay - rather than the amount he can avoid down to :-)

mudguard

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#1685437 9-Dec-2016 18:06

Geektastic:

Is there a correction? Work hard and join that 3% so it grows and is no longer only 3%...

That's fine in theory, but if you're chasing that 3% and they're busy pulling the ladder up behind them then there probably aren't enough hours in the week.

How do teachers and police increase their income? I think secondary school salaries top out at about $75k, so for maybe a couple that's $150k pa, less 12% for 5-10 years to knock off possible student loan, another 4% for Kiwisaver (as there will be no super). So that's about $4000 in the hand per month once you reach the highest salary. More likely is $50k when starting out. That's about $2964 per month in the hand. So a couple might have about $6k per month. They could probably save one salary provided there is no external debt, share a flat etc.

$3k per month, so $100k deposit in less than 3 years which is pretty good, only the prices are going up quicker than they can save the 20% deposit.

I don't know what police earn, but I've had ex's who were school teachers!

Reciprocity

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#1685439 9-Dec-2016 18:17

Fred99:
Geektastic:

This article is interesting on the subject of who pays into the tax system v who takes out of the tax system

"By comparison, the top 3 per cent of individual income earners, earning more than $150,000 a year, pay 24 per cent of all tax received."

So why there is such a downer on the well paid in NZ I have no idea.

That's oft quoted.

Total tax revenue (Year to June 2016) was $ 74 billion.
24% of that is about $18 billion. I guarantee that the top 3% of income earners, probably fewer than 50,000 people do not contribute $18 billion, or an average of $360,000 in tax each per annum.
Personal income tax is only about < 40% of total tax revenue (the rest is company tax, GST, withholding tax, excises, duties etc., government also make about another $20 billion in dividends, sale of goods (electricity) and services etc).

The 24% figure is 24% of income tax, it's about $7.5 billion and only about 10% of total tax revenue, about 8% of total revenue.

I suspect it's also a "theoretical" figure based on tax which would be payable on gross income rather than what's actually paid on declared taxable income.

That's impressive how you got to "I guarantee" on the back of reasoning like "probably fewer than...", "only about..." and "I Suspect".

Rikkitic

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#1685440 9-Dec-2016 18:19

Geektastic:

Is there a correction? Work hard and join that 3% so it grows and is no longer only 3%...

That is such specious, self-serving Tory BS! Some of the hardest workers I see are hamburger flippers at McDonalds and Burger King, along with the office cleaners at the Beehive. They could labour 24 hours a day for six lifetimes and still not be able to afford the price of a Ferrari. Hard work won't get you there. Hard work, along with intelligence, entrepreneurial skills, the right ethnic background, good genes, a lot of luck, and other combinations of fortuitous circumstances, such as having the right parents and knowing the right people, may, but don't give me that old 'hard work' litany as being the secret of success. It is only one of the ingredients and it is no guarantee of anything.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#1685459 9-Dec-2016 19:11

mudguard:

Geektastic:

Is there a correction? Work hard and join that 3% so it grows and is no longer only 3%...

That's fine in theory, but if you're chasing that 3% and they're busy pulling the ladder up behind them then there probably aren't enough hours in the week.

How do teachers and police increase their income? I think secondary school salaries top out at about $75k, so for maybe a couple that's $150k pa, less 12% for 5-10 years to knock off possible student loan, another 4% for Kiwisaver (as there will be no super). So that's about $4000 in the hand per month once you reach the highest salary. More likely is $50k when starting out. That's about $2964 per month in the hand. So a couple might have about $6k per month. They could probably save one salary provided there is no external debt, share a flat etc.

$3k per month, so $100k deposit in less than 3 years which is pretty good, only the prices are going up quicker than they can save the 20% deposit.

I don't know what police earn, but I've had ex's who were school teachers!

Just don't pick them as careers.

Then there will be a recruitment shortage and salaries will go up.

Personally if I wanted to join the 3% I would pick a career than stood a chance of getting me there.

Geektastic

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#1685460 9-Dec-2016 19:13

Rikkitic:

Geektastic:

Is there a correction? Work hard and join that 3% so it grows and is no longer only 3%...

That is such specious, self-serving Tory BS! Some of the hardest workers I see are hamburger flippers at McDonalds and Burger King, along with the office cleaners at the Beehive. They could labour 24 hours a day for six lifetimes and still not be able to afford the price of a Ferrari. Hard work won't get you there. Hard work, along with intelligence, entrepreneurial skills, the right ethnic background, good genes, a lot of luck, and other combinations of fortuitous circumstances, such as having the right parents and knowing the right people, may, but don't give me that old 'hard work' litany as being the secret of success. It is only one of the ingredients and it is no guarantee of anything.

Sure, you need above average. The world is not wired to reward average or less and never will be.

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