Maoris beating their kids. What the hell happened!

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MikeB4
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#431474 26-Jan-2011 16:34

IlDuce: Yeah I got the strap at school (1990), the only person in my age group to get it. Has never heard of anyone else locally getting it either. I learnt my lesson! That was the last deliberate naughty thing I ever did at school.

Wasn't Corporal Punishment banned in New Zealand Schools in 1989?

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Dratsab

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#431532 26-Jan-2011 18:50

oxnsox: This is a great debate...

It's a going nowhere debate. Two sets of opinions, neither of which are going to change.

gchiu

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#431539 26-Jan-2011 19:19

The winning is not important .. the public discussion is though.

Dratsab

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#431545 26-Jan-2011 19:29

Where does "winning" come into it? It's a debate which has entrenched beliefs.

oxnsox

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#431556 26-Jan-2011 19:56

Which is why it is a debate.....

And whilst those involved may not change their opinions that doesn't stop them considering the contrary point of view. (of which there are many)

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#431576 26-Jan-2011 21:19

KiwiNZ: Wasn't Corporal Punishment banned in New Zealand Schools in 1989??

I was positive it was in 1990 as it was my last year at primary school. I don't know how the strap system was supposed to work historically, meaning whether teachers could do it at will, or whether parents needed to be informed first, but I know they rung my mother first to ask permission (which she granted).

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MikeB4

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#431584 26-Jan-2011 21:43

IlDuce:
KiwiNZ: Wasn't Corporal Punishment banned in New Zealand Schools in 1989??

I was positive it was in 1990 as it was my last year at primary school. I don't know how the strap system was supposed to work historically, meaning whether teachers could do it at will, or whether parents needed to be informed first, but I know they rung my mother first to ask permission (which she granted).

Section 138(a) was inserted into the Education Act in 1989 outlawing corporal punishment in New Zealand Schools and early childhood education providers.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

gzt

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#431593 26-Jan-2011 22:05

Dratsab: It's a going nowhere debate. Two sets of opinions, neither of which are going to change.

I tend to agree. Hypothetically, if the topic had been:

"Maoris [at the bottom of social indicator x]. What the hell happened!"

A lot of responses would not be much different. I thought I would share a bit of a change moment:

I arrived in NZ aged 10 in 1980. In my early teenage years after absorbing TV and media commentary for some time without any real intent I had formed a view the Waitangi Tribunal was just a bunch of moaning and whinging about stuff that happened years ago before anyone alive was even born.

Many years later I was in a taxi going past Orakei/Mission Bay somewhere, and got into a conversation with the taxi driver about the history of the area. He tells me when he was young (1940's) he used to live on the coast down there. This surprised me. He said the government told them they had to move because it was unsanitary - because they had dirt floors (in their Whare) - and the government told them to move to the top of the hill nearby. Later they called the area 'boot hill' because the goverment booted them up there. At some point later the government took possession of the land for defence purposes and then developed a golf course on it.

Even though I had become a little more educated by then, this was still a shock to me. Here's a guy in living memory who was personally affected, in addition to his family and wider community at the time.

It's not much of a jump to realise something that happened earlier has an effect on how people live their lives today.

And, back to the topic:

Just for some perspective here, Harawira has spoken out several times about child neglect and abuse as have the Maori Party. All Maori Party MP's voted for the so called anti-smacking bill - rather than rejecting it as some kind of colonialism like you would expect from some of the posts here. And in fact, there are many initiatives by Maori addressing this issue.

Klipspringer

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#431612 26-Jan-2011 23:13

KiwiNZ:
IlDuce:
KiwiNZ: Wasn't Corporal Punishment banned in New Zealand Schools in 1989??

I was positive it was in 1990 as it was my last year at primary school. I don't know how the strap system was supposed to work historically, meaning whether teachers could do it at will, or whether parents needed to be informed first, but I know they rung my mother first to ask permission (which she granted).

Section 138(a) was inserted into the Education Act in 1989 outlawing corporal punishment in New Zealand Schools and early childhood education providers.

And its been downhill from there...

gzt

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#431617 26-Jan-2011 23:26

I came through intermediate school and high school around 83 - 86. Many schools had practically phased out corporal punishment of their own accord by then. At my school, although many teachers had a strap in the classroom, during my time the strap and cane were used rarely, and only on the hard/repeat cases. My impression was, it was not effective at changing behaviour.

It was also my impression that kids who were physically disciplined at home tended to be more violent at school - most of these came from the middle type homes and farms of the time, so poverty was not a big factor.

LookingUp

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#431618 26-Jan-2011 23:32

I'm actually with Oxnsox on this one - it is kind of interesting to explore a couple of rather different views on a matter, even if it is a little off the original topic. I fully respect others right's to a different opinion than mine, most likely based on different life experience (and not just public opinion), and reserve the right to change my opinion at the point where it becomes obvious to me that my reality is no longer consistent with what I observe.

I'm also interested in fact, and whether anyone can provide stats that support a significant improvement in child (by now adult) behavior as a result of the 1989 rule change. If such evidence exists I'll very happily admit that my (note "MY") personal circumstance is an anomaly, and that our society today is a lot more peaceful and harmonious than I remember it being a few years back. If this is the case you'll hear no more from me on the subject.

Similarly, posts such as those by GZT about personal experience are relevant (and disturbing), and provide quite valid insight into how a particular demographic may feel legitimately aggrieved and frustrated, and where that might lead. Not to marginalise that specific case, which is appalling, but I'm sure we could really open it up by looking at similar injustices on a global and historical scale and their particular outcomes. In fact, if we don't look in that direction we're in danger of heading down some rather dark pathways.

The point of the whole debate is this - there is a problem here (in fact several of them), what are WE as a NATION doing about it, beyond pointing the finger? Who's taking ownership, what's being tried, is it working, and if not, what next? Ideas and action please, as something HAS to be done, and quickly. As has been pointed out, NZ is currently a pretty bad example - how is it done better elsewhere, can it be applied here, and how? Or, is it all someone else's fault, and therefore not our personal problem that we're on a downward spiral?

Constructive suggestions?

Things are LookingUp.... A photo from my back yard :-)

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bazzer

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#431629 26-Jan-2011 23:59

LookingUp: I'm also interested in fact, and whether anyone can provide stats that support a significant improvement in child (by now adult) behavior as a result of the 1989 rule change.

How is that even remotely possible? Too many variables!

gzt

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#431651 27-Jan-2011 02:40

LookingUp: [...] Similarly, posts such as those by GZT about personal experience are relevant (and disturbing), and provide quite valid insight into how a particular demographic may feel legitimately aggrieved and frustrated, and where that might lead.

No offence intended, but making connections of that nature was not the purpose of my post. None of those kinds of feelings or unnamed outcomes were implied or suggested in my post or indeed during the conversation that day.

I am genuinely sure you did not intend any offence to any person - but I can only estimate this kind of suggestion might hurt and offend someone's dignity, as it would mine.

Not to marginalise that specific case, which is appalling, [...]

It is worth noting the Waitangi Tribunal made findings on this and related matters back in '87, and I believe an agreed settlement process is mostly complete.

LookingUp

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#431676 27-Jan-2011 08:58

Hi - my apologies - absolutely no offence or direct correlation intended. The point I was trying to make is that this is a complex issue (the original post) and that there are factors involved that may not be immediately apparent. If my family had been treated like that I'm sure my attitude to many things would be different, and that was really the point I was trying to make.

So again, my apologies if this caused offence - it was certainly not what I was aiming for.

Great to hear that there may finally be some justice provided, although I guess it does little to help those who suffered at the time.

Things are LookingUp.... A photo from my back yard :-)

oxnsox

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#431690 27-Jan-2011 09:15

Perhaps LookingUp was (like gzt), not aware that some of the issues that may be seen as contributory factors to some of the general topic posts are closer in history than many of imagine.

Indeed our countries history is soo young that people like our grandparents, and great grandparents (people we may well have meet), lived in very different social times and circumstances. Colonial communities were still being established and local lore was still evolving.

The impact of those things are some of the issues we will forever be trying to deal with.

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