How can anyone be so lacking in probity? Council staff attending lavish lunches paid for by a supplier

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dejadeadnz

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#204506 4-Oct-2016 21:11

This just makes me wonder how some people get their jobs. And how some people can have so little sense of probity and morals. Now whilst the accused in this actual criminal trial are entitled to their presumption of innocence, there appears to be little dispute that some Council staff attended extremely lavish lunches that were obviously paid for by a supplier over whom they exercised procurement, commercial and contractual management responsibility. And even if some of these people genuinely didn't know at the point of sitting down that the lunch was paid for by a supplier, by the time the bottles and bottles of expensive alcohol came, people's bells should have rung. Bosses just don't shout such expensive things.

I have always absolutely hated any work-related functions that aren't arranged by my own work for this reason. I just don't wish to be placed in any situation where there's a slightest hint of conflict of interest or lack of probity on my or my team's part. Thankfully, all of my managers have been extremely supportive over my decisions to decline almost every/any kind of gift, perk/social gathering offers by clients and suppliers. Admittedly, working in risk/compliance roles (mostly) makes taking this stance a lot easier. All the places that I have worked in also had very strict policies about us giving gifts of any sort, i.e. there's basically none.

What are your experiences and views?

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#1645473 4-Oct-2016 21:42

Would you be surprised to hear I heard of bribery going on at a certain city council about 20 years ago. The deals yours, you bill us this amount (more than list price) and you provide me with the following benefits.

It's been going on for a while in various forms, fortunately it's not as widespread here as some parts of the world.

Edit; I have no sympathy for such actions. These people are ripping off you and Me.

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Rikkitic

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#1645483 4-Oct-2016 22:14

I haven't worked in public service but when I was a journalist I would sometimes be offered lavish meals and other perks in the course of doing interviews or research. I always refused these as a matter of principle. Not all would have been crossing any lines, but it is just too difficult to say this is okay, that isn't. It was simpler to always make a point of paying my own way. It was different when I was working for company publications and was offered hospitality as part of the job. No conflicts of interest there.

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networkn

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#1645500 4-Oct-2016 22:52

Rikkitic:

I haven't worked in public service but when I was a journalist I would sometimes be offered lavish meals and other perks in the course of doing interviews or research. I always refused these as a matter of principle. Not all would have been crossing any lines, but it is just too difficult to say this is okay, that isn't. It was simpler to always make a point of paying my own way. It was different when I was working for company publications and was offered hospitality as part of the job. No conflicts of interest there.

I often wonder how impartial travel reporters are.

Fred99

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#1645506 4-Oct-2016 23:04

networkn:

Rikkitic:

I haven't worked in public service but when I was a journalist I would sometimes be offered lavish meals and other perks in the course of doing interviews or research. I always refused these as a matter of principle. Not all would have been crossing any lines, but it is just too difficult to say this is okay, that isn't. It was simpler to always make a point of paying my own way. It was different when I was working for company publications and was offered hospitality as part of the job. No conflicts of interest there.

I often wonder how impartial travel reporters are.

And motoring "reporters".

Want to drive Nürburgring in the R8 and GT3 RS ?

Looking forward to reading your review on the Polo.

Geektastic

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#1645509 4-Oct-2016 23:20

networkn:

Rikkitic:

I haven't worked in public service but when I was a journalist I would sometimes be offered lavish meals and other perks in the course of doing interviews or research. I always refused these as a matter of principle. Not all would have been crossing any lines, but it is just too difficult to say this is okay, that isn't. It was simpler to always make a point of paying my own way. It was different when I was working for company publications and was offered hospitality as part of the job. No conflicts of interest there.

I often wonder how impartial travel reporters are.

At least a lot of them now say "Joe Bloggs flew to Bali courtesy of Sellotape & Baler Twine Airways" underneath the article so you can see if it is biased and make your own judgement.

Fred99

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#1645510 4-Oct-2016 23:22

dejadeadnz:

What are your experiences and views?

That fellow Noone is alleged to have lived it up - like he was really Someone.

Aredwood

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#1645521 4-Oct-2016 23:30

What is even worse - The whole lot was setup so the council paid for all of the costs of those meals and gifts ect. So the losses to the council were much worse than just the difference between different roading contracts. (Source - paywalled NBR article).

George pleaded guilty on the eve of trial to two counts of accepting $103,000 in bribes from Borlase, mostly in the form of 20 overseas trips, and was sentenced to nine months home detention. He is listed to appear in this trial as a witness for the prosecution. - herald

What I want to know - Was George ordered to repay any of that $103,000? As that is a really high equivalent pay rate if he doesn't have to.

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cynnicallemon

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#1645541 5-Oct-2016 06:18

Fred99:

And motoring "reporters".

Want to drive Nürburgring in the R8 and GT3 RS ?

Looking forward to reading your review on the Polo.

Quite sweet and leaves a minty taste in your mouth plus it has a hole in the middle of it. Right, where are those cars?

dickytim

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#1645543 5-Oct-2016 06:29

I always had a policy of all corporate gifts going to the boss first then if he saw fit they were usually given out as a "bonus" amongst various staff.

For the most part I wouldn't even accept a free coffee from a supplier I was negotiating with, if it was an existing supplier then it was seen as not having a conflict.

Linuxluver

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#1645633 5-Oct-2016 08:45

dejadeadnz:

This just makes me wonder how some people get their jobs. And how some people can have so little sense of probity and morals. Now whilst the accused in this actual criminal trial are entitled to their presumption of innocence, there appears to be little dispute that some Council staff attended extremely lavish lunches that were obviously paid for by a supplier over whom they exercised procurement, commercial and contractual management responsibility. And even if some of these people genuinely didn't know at the point of sitting down that the lunch was paid for by a supplier, by the time the bottles and bottles of expensive alcohol came, people's bells should have rung. Bosses just don't shout such expensive things.

I have always absolutely hated any work-related functions that aren't arranged by my own work for this reason. I just don't wish to be placed in any situation where there's a slightest hint of conflict of interest or lack of probity on my or my team's part. Thankfully, all of my managers have been extremely supportive over my decisions to decline almost every/any kind of gift, perk/social gathering offers by clients and suppliers. Admittedly, working in risk/compliance roles (mostly) makes taking this stance a lot easier. All the places that I have worked in also had very strict policies about us giving gifts of any sort, i.e. there's basically none.

What are your experiences and views?

Generally, an inexpensive lunch or a coffee would be *just* ok as part of meeting a supplier for hosting a customer, but we're talking about a sandwich and a flat white and maybe taking turns, not a banquet with booze laid on....and definitely no travel or hotels or gifts beyond a calendar or a pen.

Like you, I tended to avoid functions FOR US held by outside organisations who supplied us or who were our customers. I wasn't so worried about tagging along to a Xmas party with a mate informally.

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frankv

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#1645643 5-Oct-2016 08:57

Years ago a friend was involved in purchasing for a large supermarket chain. He had a never-ending supply of tickets to tennis tournaments, rugby tests, cricket matches, etc, including air fares and accommodation.

Obviously the "hospitality" in corporate boxes at sporting events is seen by the corporate as providing a payoff. I don't see how it's different accepting a gift from an existing supplier than from a potential supplier... it's just as important to keep an existing contract as it is to gain a new one.

MikeB4

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#1645652 5-Oct-2016 09:11

unfortunately it is the way it is in NZ now, 90% of customer/supplier meetings are held outside the office over a meal or coffee or both. Some overseas trips however are very valuable for showing at first hand development centers and reference sites etc.

I have been on both sides of the fence on this and largely I am OK with it as long as it is within the rules set.

tripp

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#1645657 5-Oct-2016 09:22

I never really did think it was an issue until i started to work for bigger companies, now I totally understand how bad it is and what "some" people can/will do.

Worst was a manager saying that he was going to have to review a suppliers contract as they did not invite him/her to the melbourne cup that year. Contract to that supplier was cut in 1/2 and a new company picked up some of the work the following year.

This person would also hoard and take home any supplier gifts (xmas etc) that came in to the company never to be seen again.

Geektastic

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#1645664 5-Oct-2016 09:25

Whilst out and out bribery is usually fairly obvious, hospitality is and always has been a fairly common way of greasing the wheels.

In one of my roles I used to deal with expenditure of around $3 million a year (in UK equivalent) and couldn't tell you the number of very good lunches I had as a result of that.

One Christmas, in the 3 weeks prior, a colleague and I ended up begging each other to be the designated driver, because we were being taken out for expensive boozy lunches all over Eastern England (our patch at the time) almost every day during that 3 weeks and we couldn't stand the claret intake after a while!

It was never viewed as untoward - just the normal way of pleasant and civilised interaction. I got invited on corporate pheasant shoots quite often as well - usually 3-6 times a season - and trout fishing days on nice beats etc and again, it was never considered untoward.

The most influence it could have had was to place the companies concerned on the list of firms we would send tender documents to if/when the work was re-tendered. We deliberately recused ourselves from the Tender Boards so that we could never be accused of influencing the outcome itself and since all the firms were qualified professional firms operating within a specific legal framework in terms of the actual work being tendered for there was issue with asking them to tender.

Cash in brown envelopes etc would be a completely different scenario of course.

Rikkitic

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#1645666 5-Oct-2016 09:27

networkn:

I often wonder how impartial travel reporters are.

A positive story doesn't have to be incorrect if the writer actually experienced it that way, but the writer is unlikely to report on the negative or do critical research if the trip has been sponsored. There used to be a clear division between editorial and advertorial, but sadly that is no longer the case. We live in a commercialised society and I would be sceptical of any glowing account that cites freebies, or any glowing account at all, for that matter. You have to do your own research. Checking several travel websites and reading through the comments (and filtering out the phony ones) is the best way to do it. Travel articles can be useful to point you to potentially interesting locations but don't assume they tell the whole story, unless the publication is known to be trustworthy. The travel pages of the New York times used to be fairly reliable.

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