CGA question - from the other side

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Shapenz

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Topic # 225492 21-Nov-2017 18:46

So long story - In July 2016 I purchased a second hand laptop which I sold via TradeMe at the end of January this year.

The purchaser has just this week filed a dispute with TradeMe that it has faulted.

Now normally with a private sale I would just say bad luck it's been 10 months. However in this case my TradeMe account is 'in trade'.

I didn't but the laptop to resell (as I used it for 7 months) and I don't sell laptops as a business on TradeMe - but as my account is 'in trade' I would imagine I have some responsibilities under the CGA? I don't have a second hand dealers license or anything like that.

So my question is - should the buyer want to take it further. How long is a reasonable time for a $500 second hand laptop to last? Am I being unreasonable saying 'bad luck' or would the tribunal not look favorably on that?

TLDR - How long would you expect a $500 second hand laptop to be covered by the CGA for?

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Ultimate Geek
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Reply # 1905420 21-Nov-2017 18:53

What sort of fault?

askelon

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Reply # 1905432 21-Nov-2017 19:27

It has to last a reasonable period of time. How old is it? I would expect a reasonable period of time for a laptop from new to be around 3 years, second hand if I was selling one (which I never do cause its too much of a pain in the butt!) Id give a 3 month warranty if its that age or older. Have you actually seen its fault? How do you know they havent dropped it, given it a water bath etc. You really should have a personal account and an in trade account though, makes things much simpler!

Trader guidelines

All professional sellers (people in trade) on Trade Me should therefore comply with the following guidelines:

Disclose they are selling in trade
Ensure items they are selling are safe, durable and of acceptable quality
Ensure items they are selling are fit for their intended purpose and any other particular purposes indicated
Ensure items they are selling match the description given
Act responsibly and promptly to fix any product faults within a reasonable time after the sale (other than those caused by unreasonable use) or offer a replacement or refund
Offer a full refund upon the return of goods with any serious problems
Ensure delivery terms are clear and can be met eg. include shipping costs, taxes, fees and estimated delivery times.
Ensure that delivered items arrive at the time agreed (or if the delivery time is not clear, within a reasonable time).
Ensure that delivered items arrive in an acceptable condition.

Shapenz

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Master Geek
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Reply # 1905439 21-Nov-2017 19:44

Yes that's the million dollar question - how long is reasonable?

It was a 2015 model so I assumed when I purchased it - it was around a year old but as I bought it second hand I don't actually know.

I haven't actually seen the fault - I received the notification of the dispute from trademe - then I emailed the guy to say hey it's 10 months old sorry can't help - then I received a further email from trademe asking me to resolve the issue with the buyer.

Now I know TradeMe will just end up telling him to go to the disputes tribunal - so I was just checking that I wasn't being unreasonable should he end up going down that path.

Re - the 2 accounts. I did actually have separate accounts but trademe rather rudely closed my personal one - I assume because I was address verifying them both via the same name / address. I see now they allow it but you have to ask them so I'll see if I can get the old one re-enabled. Lesson learnt there.

richms

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Reply # 1905444 21-Nov-2017 19:59

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It seems that in trade on trademe means nothing. I thought they had some quality assurance process for showing that, but it turns out its just a tickbox that sellers tick, so is worthless as a buyer to assess if the seller actually has a clue about what they are selling.

Based on that I would just tell them it was a private sale and that's the end of it. They dont care when someone "in trade" takes 3 days to send something, and is just operating out of their garage part time.

Richard rich.ms

dejadeadnz

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Reply # 1905449 21-Nov-2017 20:10

richms:

It seems that in trade on trademe means nothing. I thought they had some quality assurance process for showing that, but it turns out its just a tickbox that sellers tick, so is worthless as a buyer to assess if the seller actually has a clue about what they are selling.

Based on that I would just tell them it was a private sale and that's the end of it. They dont care when someone "in trade" takes 3 days to send something, and is just operating out of their garage part time.

You're normally pretty sensible but this is a potentially terrible piece of advice. Like it or not, the OP's status appeared as being "in trade" at the time the trade was made. Thus, it has the potential to expose the OP to potential Fair Trading Act claims, which includes claims under s 9, which proscribes against misleading and deceptive conduct in trade. Against this background, to now make a claim that the sale was private potentially exposes the OP to a Commerce Commission complaint under s 9. To the OP: I'd just offer a decent half-way-down-the-middle offer to the buyer of around $300 odd in the interest of moving on.

Rickles

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Reply # 1905452 21-Nov-2017 20:16

Ryan ... an interesting but sticky area.

"In trade" I think was ostensibly made available for GST purpose, and consumer protection where the goods are either brand new, or sold second-hand "by a dealer/someone in the business of selling lots of second-hand goods".

I'd say a lot depends on what you normally sell 'in trade', and if you made it clear that the laptop sale was outside this 'trading business' ... and yes, a second personal account would have been best.

Why not gather all information and at least consult your local community law office for an opinion? As richms says, maybe a communication to the buyer outlining your normal business and confirming that the laptop was a 'private' sale could settle the matter?

mattwnz

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Reply # 1905457 21-Nov-2017 20:31

If it is 2015, can you contact the original seller? It may still be under warranty, or a CGA claim, as you would be the retailer making a claim to the manufacturer, on behalf of the person you sold it to. I guess if you purchased it second hand, this maybe more difficult.

Also how come the seller didn't contact you directly to tell you about it. Don't they have to give you the opportunity to fix it? Did they pay by TMs credit card function?

timmmay

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Reply # 1905462 21-Nov-2017 20:46

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If they didn't contact you first I'd just go along to the hearing with a reasonable attitude, if it's not too inconvenient. Prepare a statement to read. State that you sold the laptop in good faith and the first you heard of a problem was when a complaint was filed, and that if you'd been contacted you'd have done your best to make things right. Ask what they want, and decide what you'll offer. Full refund seems unreasonable. Repair is reasonable, but probably costs more than it's worth. Partial refund is probably most practical.

IANAL.

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Pumpedd

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Reply # 1905473 21-Nov-2017 21:24

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I wouldn't offer anything...they had 10 months use, which indicates to me it was NOT faulty when you sold it in good faith. Also depends what wrong with it as the new buyer may have caused the fault. Anyones guess.

Linux

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Reply # 1905488 21-Nov-2017 22:00

I would tell them to go jump as you sold them a second hand product and it's been 10 months

Linux

dejadeadnz

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Reply # 1905512 21-Nov-2017 22:32

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As presumably the only RL lawyer to have offered advice so far, I can tell the OP that not one person's opinion other than Timmay's (and it's very good - just be reasonable and settle instead of wasting time or even worse telling BS like the sale was private and potentially leaving one exposed to a ComCom warning or more) is worth reading.

dickytim

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Reply # 1905584 22-Nov-2017 08:51

dejadeadnz:

As presumably the only RL lawyer to have offered advice so far, I can tell the OP that not one person's opinion other than Timmay's (and it's very good - just be reasonable and settle instead of wasting time or even worse telling BS like the sale was private and potentially leaving one exposed to a ComCom warning or more) is worth reading.

Has the buyer failed to act in good faith by not approaching the seller in the first place?

It sounds like the seller doesn't even know what the problem is, so has had no opportunity to remedy it or tell them to get stuffed if it is likely a physical damage / software or other user caused issue.

I feel for the guy as he has sold a second hand item, which the buyer should assume the risk on.

Varkk

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Reply # 1905600 22-Nov-2017 09:35

For a data point for you there are some places which specialise in second hand PC gear and they usually offer a 6 month warranty on 2nd hand laptops. But without knowing what kind of fault it is, it is hard to offer more of a resolution. Lastly if it was a business grade laptop it may still have the original manufacturer warranty which can be checked by going to their support site and entering the serial number. If it was a consumer grade then often they won't have parts available after twelve months.

MadEngineer

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Reply # 1905609 22-Nov-2017 10:12

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Most shops selling old stock including for example ex-lease and refurbished items state 6month warranties which is what I’d call a reasonable length of time, especially considering they are heavily discounted.

I’d put it to the buyer that the item is second hand (I trust this was clear in the auction) and only has a 6 month warranty.

Tread politely and be prepared to mark it down a a learning experience.

sen8or

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Reply # 1905630 22-Nov-2017 10:57

Whats the nature of the fault?

It could be a simple fix in which its easier to compromise rather than battle it out. Has the buyer had the machine inspected with repair quotes and also detailing the nature of the fault?

With a laptop and 10 months use, I imagine it would be difficult to prove (by the buyer) that it hasn't been mishandled / mistreated (bumped, dropped, squashed in a bag, liquid damage or some other sort of PICNIC fault). I think you at least first need to find out whats wrong before worrying about anything else

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