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Technofreak

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#280195 1-Dec-2020 21:31
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I was rather shocked at Worksafe's scattergun approach to the charges they are laying with respect to the White Island tragedy. It makes me wonder where it will ever end, especially if Worksafe are successful with their prosecutions.

 

It is conceivable we may see the end of skiing on Mt Ruapehu. After all that is an active volcano which has been at volcanic activity level 2 (same as White Island was) several times in the past while people gathered for recreational activities. People could easily have been killed during either of the two eruptions there in the 1990's.

 

What about the Tongariro Crossing? One of the huts there was almost destroyed by erupted rocks during the relatively recent eruption in the area, luckily there was no one the hut at the time. 

 

What other activities will follow? Life as we know may change for the worse.

 

If there was negligence where the operators were operating outside of their approved operating guidelines there most definitely should be a prosecution. So far I as I am aware there has been no evidence of this. These prosecutions will not bring any loved ones back and I believe the prosecution will put a lot of people through living hell for no benefit.

 

I think there should be an inquiry of some sort to see What, How, Why, Who, if things could or should have been done differently or better. That way things can be made better in future.

 

In a prosecution everyone is so focused on protecting their backside there is rarely ever an outcome that makes things better as information gets twisted or manipulated to save peoples bacon. Retribution which is generally the outcome from a prosecution is not the right outcome.

 

An inquiry is a much better forum for fixing things as the participants are more likely to be open with the facts.

 

I was quite pleased to see this headline today.

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/431829/both-pilot-and-brother-of-whakaari-tour-guide-against-worksafe-charges 

 

 





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Bung
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  #2614388 1-Dec-2020 21:55
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I heard a comment on National radio that laws were changed after Pike River and this is to some extent a test case.



Technofreak

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  #2614395 1-Dec-2020 22:19
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Bung: I heard a comment on National radio that laws were changed after Pike River and this is to some extent a test case.

 

A test case that will destroy some more lives. How good is that? 

 

 

 

I forgot to ask in my first post, Why isn't Worksafe among those being charged?

 

After all one would expect Worksafe were signing off on how these activities were being conducted. Either the operators were compliant or non compliant. Either way Worksafe has some accountability. If the operators were compliant then Worksafe need to look at their own standards. If the operators were non compliant Worksafe must shoulder responsibility for allowing them to continue to operate.





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jamesrt
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  #2614396 1-Dec-2020 22:21
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Yes, law changes now mean that someone must be held responsible, from what I understand. Therefore, the shotgun approach will be to find that one person, who legally will be 'it' for the whole event.

This presumably will not end well for that individual...



  #2614428 2-Dec-2020 05:40
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jamesrt: Yes, law changes now mean that someone must be held responsible, from what I understand. Therefore, the shotgun approach will be to find that one person, who legally will be 'it' for the whole event.

This presumably will not end well for that individual...

 

No

 

there will be more than one person charged at the end of this from multiple different parties and for differing degrees of negligence. be it a a persons mistake or a procedural one.

 

Have a read of the couple of quick guides to get an understanding of what the act is about

 

https://worksafe.govt.nz/dmsdocument/824-introduction-to-the-health-and-safety-at-work-act-2015-special-guide

 

https://worksafe.govt.nz/dmsdocument/809-health-and-safety-at-work-quick-reference-guide

 

@Technofreak what about the lives were destroyed by a companies or individuals potential negligence?

 

"A PCBU ( Person Conducting a Business or Undertaking) must ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health and safety of workers, and that other people are not put at risk by its work. This is called the ‘primary duty of care’."


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  #2614476 2-Dec-2020 07:23
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Bung: I heard a comment on National radio that laws were changed after Pike River and this is to some extent a test case.

 

Pike River resulted in massive changes to our health and safety laws to strengthen them. This is one of the big controversies surrounding the reentry to the mine - Worksafe granted exemptions to S220 of the Act otherwise reentry would not have been able to occur because the new laws would have pretty much made it impossible due to the risk.

 

 


SaltyNZ
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  #2614480 2-Dec-2020 07:25
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Jase2985:

 

"A PCBU ( Person Conducting a Business or Undertaking) must ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health and safety of workers, and that other people are not put at risk by its work. This is called the ‘primary duty of care’."

 

 

 

 

Sure, but OP's main point still stands. The tourists were visiting a live volcano. They knew it was live, that's part of the attraction. Looking down into the caldera of Mt. Eden is not very interesting. But if the outcome of some/all of these charges is a successful prosecution then yes, that's probably the end of all activities in the National Park area because that's an active volcanic area too. Maybe Rotorua closes - it's all active. Any of them could explode at any time with little practical warning.

 

There is a definite possibility of unfortunate unintended consequences here.





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mdooher
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  #2614487 2-Dec-2020 07:47
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Technofreak:

 

I forgot to ask in my first post, Why isn't Worksafe among those being charged?

 

After all one would expect Worksafe were signing off on how these activities were being conducted. Either the operators were compliant or non compliant. Either way Worksafe has some accountability. If the operators were compliant then Worksafe need to look at their own standards. If the operators were non compliant Worksafe must shoulder responsibility for allowing them to continue to operate.

 

 

Ah you clearly haven't had much to with worksafe "signing off on things".. this is how it works

 

"Hi Worksafe I am doing this thing in this way, is that ok?"

 

"Do you think it safe?"

 

"I think our processes are fine, but I really just want you to check it for us, so I can be sure"

 

"We can't give advise like that, if you think it is fine go ahead, ("but if something goes wrong we will come back and ask you if you could have done anything else to make the activity safer, and since the answer to that question is always "yes" we are going to nail your backside to the wall")

 

 





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Geektastic
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  #2614495 2-Dec-2020 08:04
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NZ is heading down the Euro path.

I used to crew on a yacht and my life jacket had an EU warning in it that said “Wearing a life jacket may not prevent you from drowning”.

Society becomes more infantilised by the year.





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  #2614497 2-Dec-2020 08:06
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sbiddle:

Bung: I heard a comment on National radio that laws were changed after Pike River and this is to some extent a test case.


Pike River resulted in massive changes to our health and safety laws to strengthen them. This is one of the big controversies surrounding the reentry to the mine - Worksafe granted exemptions to S220 of the Act otherwise reentry would not have been able to occur because the new laws would have pretty much made it impossible due to the risk.


 



That’s completely illogical.





shrub
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  #2614499 2-Dec-2020 08:10
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Worksafe is not there to "permit or advise on activities" Worksafe is only there when something goes wrong.

 

Such a backwards and unhelpful government agency


frankv
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  #2614509 2-Dec-2020 08:30
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If the law says something, then it ought to either be enforced or be repealed.

 

The law says a company must take reasonable care, which sounds good to me, so I'm happy with enforcement. Companies aren't required to take *unreasonable* care, but they can't ignore risks. What does "reasonable" mean in this context?

 

I'm thinking that a test might be: Would the person being charged have gone to the island themselves the day before the eruption? If they would have, then they're not exposing employees or visitors to risks they wouldn't assume themselves. Unless they're reckless about their own lives. So, would an average, reasonable person, in possession of all the information available to the charged person, have gone to the island the day before the eruption, or sought more information?

 

 


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  #2614518 2-Dec-2020 08:50
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A court of law is the best and right place to judge the validity of these charges and not the court of public opinion.


Varkk
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  #2614525 2-Dec-2020 08:56
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I am not surprised the tour operators are being charged under the act. What did surprise me was that GNS was also charged. The details for which are not public yet. Perhaps it is because they think they should have done more to advise the tour operators the island was unsafe considering they pulled their own staff from the island due to the increased activity leading up to the eruption. But surely if the volcanologists are pulling out you don't take a bunch of tourists in to have a look.


mdooher
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  #2614538 2-Dec-2020 09:10
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MikeB4:

 

A court of law is the best and right place to judge the validity of these charges and not the court of public opinion.

 

 

I think the discussion is more about the law itself, rather than the outcome of any particular charge





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  #2614541 2-Dec-2020 09:17
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I'm quite surprised that the owners are being charged as well...they issued permits. Assumedly those permits would simply grant permission to use the island for their activities within the law. 

 

Not sure what culpability they have...





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