Unlimited sick leave

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blackjack17

1705 posts

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#295557 6-Apr-2022 10:39

Does any one have unlimited sick leave at their workplace? We are thinking of throwing that in the mix when the next contract negotiations come up later this year.

I had it years ago in one of my jobs straight out of uni and nobody seemed to abuse it, in fact instead of people taking their "5 days leave" regardless of whether they were sick, people only used it when they were actually sick.

How does it work at your workplace and if someone is willing to share the wording of it/policy documents that would be super helpful (even pm if you don't want to make it public)

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#2897573 6-Apr-2022 10:50

Better than where I was working a decade ago where I was told by

Manager - don't come in if you're sick
HR - you've used more sick leave than you are entitled to! Don't do that!
also HR (I think in the same conversation!) - we won't tell you if you've got any sick leave left/how much

I think they went to unlimited (or increased) sick leave a year or two later.

mkissin

388 posts

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#2897576 6-Apr-2022 10:59

Officially, we comply with the relevant legislation, but we have an unofficial policy that if you're sick we don't want you at the office. If you try to come in, you're likely to get heckled.

It maybe helps for us that we're a small team, and can trust everyone not to abuse the system.

Honestly, I can't imagine why you'd ever want to put someone in a situation where they would need to come in sick, even in more normal times.

MikeAqua

7773 posts

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#2897577 6-Apr-2022 11:02

About 20% of our hourly wage staff always use all their sick leave every year. Used to be 5, but will now increase to 10 days. For that reason we would never have that kind of policy.

What we do have is unlimited manager discretion for sickness, bereavement, DV, and family court leave. So for example if someone has a serious illness their manager can support them with more sick leave.

Mike

mkissin

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#2897579 6-Apr-2022 11:06

MikeAqua:

About 20% of our hourly wage staff always use all their sick leave every year. Used to be 5, but will now increase to 10 days. For that reason we would never have that kind of policy.

Honest question here. With the entitlement being only 5 days, does that seem surprising?

A decent cold will knock me out for 2 or 3 days and with a toddler in the family I was initially getting 5 or 6 colds a year, easily.

If the toddler is sick, either me or my wife need to stay home too, so even if I don't get sick, I could easily use 5 sick days in a year.

eracode

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#2897580 6-Apr-2022 11:09

I have been retired for quite some time but used to work at one the major trading banks. The bank used to have a specified number of sick-days per year from (from memory it was 10 days) - and people felt compelled to make sure they used them all.

About 15 years ago the bank introduced an ‘unlimited number’ approach - with a proviso that they reserved the right to ask for a doctor’s certificate to verify an absence of more than three days.

The result was that the total number of sick-days taken each year reduced by about 33%. My feeling is that the staff liked the new arrangement because they felt they were being trusted more and that it was fair. A win-win.

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frankv

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#2897581 6-Apr-2022 11:09

I had unlimited sick leave at a previous job. My experience was similar to the OP's... it wasn't abused. I think that, as in other places, a person using 3 or more days contiguous sick leave could be asked for a doctor's certificate. There was also some wording in the contract like "if you're away more than a month or two, you need to negotiate with the organisation about whether/when you're coming back and/or your job can be terminated".

Lias

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#2897588 6-Apr-2022 11:23

Ours is kind of a grey area to be honest. My IEA says 10 days, the employee benefits guide says you are allowed a reasonable amount of time off and specifically mentions not being constrained by five or ten day limits. The HR policy says that 10-12 days per year is reasonable in general, more can be granted in some circumstances and anything over 10 days needs HR sign off. They have really good WFH and flexibility policies thou, so it's less of an issue, because you only really need to take time off if you feel like death, rather than just because you are a bit sniffy or have a sick kid etc, you can just work around those. I gather (albeit it anecdotal hearsay) that leave over 10 days is fine if there is a genuine need (e.g. I'm peripherally aware of people who've had extended time off due to heart attacks, surgery, etc. without issue).

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empacher48

368 posts

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#2897590 6-Apr-2022 11:28

We have a maximum of three months sick leave per event.

So if you break your arm and can't work and need to take 6 weeks off, you can get paid sick leave for that. But then come to work for a day and the following day break your leg and need more time off, then it resets. Or insert whatever thing you may need to take time off for.

blackjack17

1705 posts

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#2897592 6-Apr-2022 11:31

I guess a complicating factor at my workplace is the WFH is impossible (private school) and any sick leave comes with the additional cost of a reliever. However by taking sick leave you are expected to leave relief for another teacher (possibly non-specialist) to teach from, which can take longer that just teaching the lesson. I know of (and have done so myself) teachers that have taught lessons because it is easier to come in sick than to try to prepare relief that is likely to be delivered badly anyway.

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evnafets

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#2897596 6-Apr-2022 11:44

Just a note that as of 24 July 2021, the minimum sick leave in NZ got extended from "5 days" to "10 days" - from the next entitlement date.

https://www.employment.govt.nz/about/news-and-updates/sick-leave-increasing-to-10-days-are-you-ready-for-the-change/

Personally, my contract had 10 days sick leave already written in prior to this. Generally, my work appears supportive of people taking sick leave. I don't really use it (let alone abuse it) so haven't got any experience with it. But I think once you've 'used up' the sick leave, they probably start taking it out of annual leave...

blackjack17

1705 posts

Uber Geek

#2897597 6-Apr-2022 11:50

Yes when it shifted from 5 days to 10 we moved from the PPTA length of service to 10 days.

Length of service

Entitlement*

Up to 3 months 7 days

Over 3 months and up to 6 months 14 days

Over 6 months and up to 9 months 31 days

Over 9 months and up to 5 years 46 days

Over 5 years and up to 10 years 92 days

Over 10 years and up to 20 years 154 days

Over 20 years and up to 30 years 229 days

Over 30 years 306 days

We don't really have the option of taking it as annual leave as all of our annual leave must be taken over the Christmas "shutdown"

Our work has been quite generous in giving unlimited COVID leave which isn't detected from sick leave.

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MikeAqua

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#2897618 6-Apr-2022 12:32

mkissin:

Honest question here. With the entitlement being only 5 days, does that seem surprising?

A decent cold will knock me out for 2 or 3 days and with a toddler in the family I was initially getting 5 or 6 colds a year, easily.

If the toddler is sick, either me or my wife need to stay home too, so even if I don't get sick, I could easily use 5 sick days in a year.

Sure, but the people I'm thinking of don't have kids.

IME people with kids, are very careful with their sick leave. One of the reasons we have manager discretion is for people with kids or partner prone to serious illness or ...

Having it as discretionary means it's easy to say no to people are are taking the mickey. The union really, really hates it. Every year we offer to abolish the policy and go back to the minimum legal entitlement and they drop it.

And again 80% of people don't use all their sick leave. I have plenty of people with 30+ days accumulated

Some people are very blatant. They wanted annual leave, but they didn't have any, and shockingly they get sick the day the wanted as leave. Or they always get sick on Monday/Friday. Or you happen to run into them at cafe when they are sick. Those particular people would take 50 days a year, if it was unlimited.

Mike

blackjack17

1705 posts

Uber Geek

#2897633 6-Apr-2022 12:56

MikeAqua:

mkissin:

Honest question here. With the entitlement being only 5 days, does that seem surprising?

A decent cold will knock me out for 2 or 3 days and with a toddler in the family I was initially getting 5 or 6 colds a year, easily.

If the toddler is sick, either me or my wife need to stay home too, so even if I don't get sick, I could easily use 5 sick days in a year.

Sure, but the people I'm thinking of don't have kids.

IME people with kids, are very careful with their sick leave. One of the reasons we have manager discretion is for people with kids or partner prone to serious illness or ...

Having it as discretionary means it's easy to say no to people are are taking the mickey. The union really, really hates it. Every year we offer to abolish the policy and go back to the minimum legal entitlement and they drop it.

And again 80% of people don't use all their sick leave. I have plenty of people with 30+ days accumulated

Some people are very blatant. They wanted annual leave, but they didn't have any, and shockingly they get sick the day the wanted as leave. Or they always get sick on Monday/Friday. Or you happen to run into them at cafe when they are sick. Those particular people would take 50 days a year, if it was unlimited.

Most policies with unlimited still allow the employer to request a medical certificate. Less than 3 days at the employer's cost, 3 or more at the employee's expense.

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elpenguino

3419 posts

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#2897637 6-Apr-2022 13:27

empacher48:

We have a maximum of three months sick leave per event.

So if you break your arm and can't work and need to take 6 weeks off, you can get paid sick leave for that. But then come to work for a day and the following day break your leg and need more time off, then it resets. Or insert whatever thing you may need to take time off for.

I think ACC comes into play for things like that (after the first 4 weeks maybe?). I've seen people come to work on crutches - by taxi paid for by ACC.

Where an employer can really help with unlimited sick leave is for serious illness. We all get a cold and have a few days off now and then but if you get cancer , then what?

Something like that can literally take years of on and off treatment, treatment that will leave you unable to work for weeks at a time. No amount of normal sick leave will cover that.

I know someone who went through this and the family would have not been able to get through it without a compassionate and generous approach from two employers. Two because the partner will need a lot of time off too.

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blackjack17

1705 posts

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#2897639 6-Apr-2022 13:37

elpenguino:

empacher48:

We have a maximum of three months sick leave per event.

So if you break your arm and can't work and need to take 6 weeks off, you can get paid sick leave for that. But then come to work for a day and the following day break your leg and need more time off, then it resets. Or insert whatever thing you may need to take time off for.

I think ACC comes into play for things like that (after the first 4 weeks maybe?). I've seen people come to work on crutches - by taxi paid for by ACC.

Where an employer can really help with unlimited sick leave is for serious illness. We all get a cold and have a few days off now and then but if you get cancer , then what?

Something like that can literally take years of on and off treatment, treatment that will leave you unable to work for weeks at a time. No amount of normal sick leave will cover that.

I know someone who went through this and the family would have not been able to get through it without a compassionate and generous approach from two employers. Two because the partner will need a lot of time off too.

If the accident occurred at work. Your work will need to pay the first week then ACC covers up to 80% after that.

If the accident occurs outside of work, sick leave for the first then ACC up to 80% after that.

Your employer may top up to 100%.

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