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Linuxluver

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#72774 2-Dec-2010 13:31
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The price of petrol seems to be creeping up fairly rapidly. I noticed yesterday it's $1.88/litre.

Not that long ago it $1.68/litre. 

I'm reading "The Long Emergency" by James Kuntsler. He makes a compelling case that once we have seen the production peak of oil, the price will begin to rise fairly rapidly thereafter as demand continues to outstrip supply....and there is no longer any "swing" producer who can open the taps to keep a lid on price. 

There is evidence to suggest we are currently at the peak or just past it. The Saudis are pumping 7 million barrels of seawater into the Ghawar oil field every day to flush out the oil....and what is coming out of the pumps is reported to be 55% water.....which means there is still a lot of oil coming out.....but the proportion of water is steadily rising. The German military is moving to reduce dependence on fossil fuels as they see major economic and social disorder in the decade (only 10 years!) ahead. 

Kuntsler says the peak will be bumpy and it will only be seen in hindsight to have been the peak. He's not talking about running out of oil - that wonn't happen for decades. He's talking about what happens when there isn't enough to go around...and that could happen this year or next or the one after....very soon, once production peaks and the population and demand continue to rise. Around the peak, the price or oil will go up and down for a time until the downward trend on production capacity is undeniable....at which point things will become interesting....as our entire way of life - our civilisation  - is underpinned by the availability of cheap, portable, versatile oil. 

Virtually every major field currently in production is already known to be indecline: North Sea, Venezuela, The US has been in decline since 1972. 

He also goes through all the likely alternatives in detail, one by one, and explains how and why they won't fill the gap that will open up in the economy of the planet once demand for oil finally outstrips supply. 

His particular concern is around food production which has enabled the world to have almost 7 billion people.....and he takes the view that this is number is unsustainable should the supply of oil fall very far from the demand for it. 

He calls it the Long Emergency and says the invasion of Iraq was a sign that it was underway as the leaders of the US have known since the 1970s that global oil demand would eventually outstrip supply....and they have done very little about it as it is political suicide to tell Americans they can't have their SUVs in their far-flung suburbs. 

So, with this in mind, when will the price of petrol hit $2 / litre? Beyond that, when will it hit $3 / litre? 

I'd say $2 / litre is likley in the next 12 months.

$3 / litre may occur in the 12 months beyond that....or perhaps as much as two years.

Much will depend on perceptions. Once "the markets" have decided peak oil is in the rear-vision mirror, the sky could be the limit for pricing.  

Any takers on rationing? I'm picking about 10 years from now. Maybe less.....

Makes Steven Joyce's "Holiday Highway" between Puhoi and Warkwarth look like a huge waste of money...and resources. 





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langers1972
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  #412074 2-Dec-2010 13:42
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Linuxluver: Makes Steven Joyce's "Holiday Highway" between Puhoi and Warkwarth look like a huge waste of money...and resources. 



Not to mention the idiotic "Road of National Significance" down here that's going to run straight through my lovely town

By the time it's built (for close to $0.5bn) we'll all be hovering about like Marty McFly wondering what the big black stripe is for

$2/ltr by Feb 2011 is my bet



DeroyBoy
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  #412082 2-Dec-2010 14:01
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I think it will continue to slowly rise in price as demand increases.

I'm not worried about it though because as oil gets more expensive we will transition to newer technology which is to expensive (compared with oil) to use today.

By new tech I mean cars which use petrol more efficiently or which run on alternative energy sources (electric/fuel cell etc)

richms
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  #412088 2-Dec-2010 14:09
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Its already been over $2 a liter and is very close at the moment when I last filled up.

I think it was over $2.25 one fill back in 2008 for the good stuff.




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geek4me
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  #412110 2-Dec-2010 14:38
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The NZ$-US$ exchange rate is more likely to affect the pump price in the short term but no doubt the trend will be up. Perhaps buy futures in oil if you think the price will rocket up.

I understand New Zealand exports as much refined petroleum product in dollar terms as it imports. The government wins both ways charging us more based on the world US$ price and getting more US$ for what it exports.

Linuxluver

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  #412118 2-Dec-2010 15:00
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DeroyBoy: I think it will continue to slowly rise in price as demand increases.

I'm not worried about it though because as oil gets more expensive we will transition to newer technology which is to expensive (compared with oil) to use today.

By new tech I mean cars which use petrol more efficiently or which run on alternative energy sources (electric/fuel cell etc)


Might be worth reading his book. The alternatives are there, but there are reasons why they can't scale to replace oil.

It's not just about cars. In a way, they are the least of our worries. It's about the entire oil eco-system that under-pins production of all kinds.....medicines, metals, plastics, mining, agriculture, civil projects like dams, bridges.....everything....and, in turn, distribution of all those. Shipping things across the planet for assembly will become increasingly expensive and impractical. Industries will disappear...and the jobs along with them. What will those people do all day and how will they feed themselves? 

Reading his book and following the threads through the various parts of the resource and supply chain does make one stop and wonder about the myriad points of sensitivity to greater difficulty obtaining the oil or oil derivatives those complex processes require at one point or several in order to operate. 

The problem is much more complex than what we'll be putting in our petrol tanks. 

It's also getting a bit late for these technological alternatives to be appearing. They all involve greater costs and some some significant problems. 

He's particularly harsh about fuel cells. The hydrogen required would take a up a lot of space in the vehicle, be highly dangerous, under *enormous* pressure...and instead of one truck filling up a fueling station, the equivalent hydrogen energy delivered would require 21 trucks....putting an enormous number of additonal vehicles on the roads....fueled by what?.....carrying an extremely dangerous, corrosive, constantly leaking highly flamable fuel. Then he talks about how much electricity is required to make the hydrogen...and the whole things starts to look like a complete nonsense. Kuntsler says there may well be fuel cell vehicles on the roads, but they won't be accessible to everyone - or even most - due to price and all the related issues. I'm over-simplifying but suffice to say, Kuntsler deals comprehensively and in detail with the "cornucopian" view that technology will provide through market forces. Faith is nice.....but the 2nd law of thermodynamics militates against all easy alternatives to oil. There aren't any. 

 






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Linuxluver

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  #412120 2-Dec-2010 15:06
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richms: Its already been over $2 a liter and is very close at the moment when I last filled up.

I think it was over $2.25 one fill back in 2008 for the good stuff.


I remember. The buses on the North Shore were full to bursting for several weeks. Then the price dropped and many went back to their cars.....though not everyone. I know several people who found that the bus ride into the city was actually fairly pleasant....most days. :-)  

I was thinking about when it goes over $2 / litre...and never really drops down again... \

 




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graemeh
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  #412122 2-Dec-2010 15:09
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The same thing was said about coal back when they had coal powered trains. It never did run out, we just found something better and will find something better again.

 
 
 

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  #412123 2-Dec-2010 15:11
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Fuel is still the cheapest part of car ownership unless you do serious milage, perhaps at $3/l it will change, but the diff between $60 and $90 a week wont change much.




Richard rich.ms

Linuxluver

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  #412124 2-Dec-2010 15:12
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geek4me: The NZ$-US$ exchange rate is more likely to affect the pump price in the short term but no doubt the trend will be up. Perhaps buy futures in oil if you think the price will rocket up.

I understand New Zealand exports as much refined petroleum product in dollar terms as it imports. The government wins both ways charging us more based on the world US$ price and getting more US$ for what it exports.


We tend to import crude and refine it at Marsden Point...so excluding that I suppose one might find some equivalence among the remaining imports to exports.

I won't speculate in the futures market. It's too vulnerable to manipulation by forces much greater than my wallet. :-)  

As for the X-rate.....If we had the US$0.55 dollar some want us to have, we'd already be well over the $2/ litre mark, I suspect. That our dollar has been at a high level the past few years may be another indication our food is in demand. That could continue to be the case, though we may have to begin to grow different kinds of foods to make it cheaper to ship them with less energy-demanding methods of storage. 

 




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Linuxluver

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  #412125 2-Dec-2010 15:14
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graemeh: The same thing was said about coal back when they had coal powered trains. It never did run out, we just found something better and will find something better again.


This certainly won't be black or white...and what we power our freight vehicles with is almost irrelevant in a way. It's as much about how we make those vehicles - and everything else - as it is about what powers them. 

The underlying issue is what source of energy do we use to make everything that oil is now used to make.... and grow our food. 





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oxnsox
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  #412161 2-Dec-2010 16:53
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The term Fuel Cells doesn't just refer to Hydrogen. Batteries, and indeed petrol tanks, are also fuel cells.

We could debate that as the US uses (per capita) the highest amounts of fuel it should be made to lower that to what could be a universally defined Global average target. And much like carbon trading (how bizarre is that?) Markets will form which will allow places like the US to trade in fossil oil consumption credits... Now that would be a far more equitable way of equalizing economic variations across richer and poorer countries (except for those whose dictators will keep them impoverished and poor so they can improve there own fossil fueled wealth).

But still there is plenty more fuel under the sea in places that are simply harder, harsher, and riskier, to extract it from. And although supply won't keep up with demand I'm guessing oil is still amassing where it will....

But hey....... with global warming the larger population centers that have (always) inhabited the coastal regions will reduce or perish, thru increasingly common uncommon natural disaster events. Populations will retreat to the hills and the monolithic structures of the cities will be overrun by sand and decay. New windowless monoliths will be built to shelter from the storms of heat and sand, and we'll be back to subsistence and sustainable living again. Our iPads and Blackberries will become lost memories and then generations from now as the cycle completes and things cool, good people will head back to the waters looking for the lost cities of Lost Angles.... The cold will run further down the valleys forcing less of the survivors to the shores of open oceans and inland seas... And in a millenium or so of generations someone will find the remains of VW Beetle unearthed on what will be the new Californiopia shore line. Those who listened to the tales of their many forefathers will know with certainty that the German tribes were the early colonizers of this land.... and then someone will find an iPhone in the glove box....

But beyond that they'll start a new coastal based society structure and forget about the life in the high lands.... until someone finds the pyramidic peaks and domes of the lost hill tribes and speculate how the structures show they foolishly worshiped the sun... And some old guy hunting in the regenerating wood of the Taxis low lands will find a creek thats discoloured by a strange black sweet smelling liquid, that isn't easy to wash out of his stained clothes.... "Oil not know what that is" he'll say, "but it might be useful for summit so oil lay claim to the lot of it." "It might just come in handy for those new fangled Stream engines."

The rest, they say, is History... it'll just be a few thousand years and maybe a messiah away.

graemeh
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  #412177 2-Dec-2010 17:18
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Linuxluver:
graemeh: The same thing was said about coal back when they had coal powered trains. It never did run out, we just found something better and will find something better again.


This certainly won't be black or white...and what we power our freight vehicles with is almost irrelevant in a way. It's as much about how we make those vehicles - and everything else - as it is about what powers them. 

The underlying issue is what source of energy do we use to make everything that oil is now used to make.... and grow our food. 



Agreed Smile


Perhaps we'll find a way to capture methane released from the ocean by global warming and convert that to a liquid fuel.

That or finally crack nuclear fusion.

Finch
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  #412199 2-Dec-2010 18:10
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Im glad I dont drive or have a car. Seems very expensive

wreck90
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  #412202 2-Dec-2010 18:15
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Petrol taxes are contributing more to increases than supplier cost increases.

Look to the govt for a start.

While we will run out of petrol one day, it won't be the end of the world. Electric cars will improve enough to replace gas engines.

I'm sure there will always be fuel reserved for the most important applications, such as shipping.

richms
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  #412204 2-Dec-2010 18:20
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the last fifth gear had the nissan leaf which they were pretty happy with, so we may be there almost.




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