CGA questions

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Nikoftime

103 posts

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#93085 14-Nov-2011 08:18

I had a frustrating conversation with a sale person from Harvey Norman over the weekend.
I was asking if any dishwashers come with warranties longer than 2 years?
His answer was No they don't but we can offer an extended warranty up to 5 years.
I said ahh those extended warranties have a bad name don't they and under the CGA I shouldn't need one.
In the discussion that followed I was left with the follwoing unresolved questions:

When I purchase from a retailer is my contract with them only or does the manufacturer (Bosch dishwasher in this example) have any legal obligations to me.

What is a reasonable life expectancy of a dishwasher?" If a dishwasher failed after say 3.5 years would the CGA require it to be repaired and would that cover both parts and labour?

johnr

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#544949 14-Nov-2011 08:25

Its with the retailer and depends on the cost of the dish washer

SaltyNZ

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#544950 14-Nov-2011 08:27

I opened this thread expecting a nostalgia discussion of 4-colour palette 320x240 graphics and was disappointed.

//Always wanted to upgrade to EGA.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

garvani

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#544972 14-Nov-2011 09:17

SaltyNZ: I opened this thread expecting a nostalgia discussion of 4-colour palette 320x240 graphics and was disappointed.

//Always wanted to upgrade to EGA.

I lol'd, good work :). Those were the days, i remember California Games in CGA, good times. Meanwhile ill stop threadjacking!

I would expect a dishwasher to last 3 years if not more. As stated the warranty is with the store and if you were successful with your CGA claim they would either repair, replace free of charge, or give you a refund (i believe its upto the store which one they choose)

DonGould

3892 posts

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#544973 14-Nov-2011 09:17

SaltyNZ: I opened this thread expecting a nostalgia discussion of 4-colour palette 320x240 graphics and was disappointed.

//Always wanted to upgrade to EGA.

hahahaha.... so many people are not going to have a clue what you're on about Salt :)

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DonGould

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#544975 14-Nov-2011 09:20

Nikoftime:
When I purchase from a retailer is my contract with them only or does the manufacturer (Bosch dishwasher in this example) have any legal obligations to me.

What is a reasonable life expectancy of a dishwasher?" If a dishwasher failed after say 3.5 years would the CGA require it to be repaired and would that cover both parts and labour?

Contract is between you and the retailer.

I would expect a dishwasher to do 5 years no mater brand or price. If a dishwasher will not do 5 years in New Zealand then the retailer should not be selling the product to you.

Part of the sales process is to understand your usage. It is also to understand New Zealand conditions.

These things are important to help keep products that are to low quality out of the market as they only result in very poor carbon foot print.

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scuwp

3885 posts

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#544986 14-Nov-2011 09:29

From the Consumer Affairs website:

How long do your CGA rights last? This depends on:

the type of goods
the price you paid for them
anything you were told about them either by the trader or on the packaging
how you have used the goods.

Taking all of these things into account, you ask the question “how long would a reasonable consumer expect these goods to last without developing this kind of fault?”

So if you buy a $20 CD player at a secondhand shop and it stops working after six months, you may not be covered under the CGA. But if you buy a new $150 CD player and it stops working after six months, you should be covered. If you buy a low-capacity dishwasher but your family of eight runs it three times a day your CGA rights will not last as long as a family that runs the same dishwasheronly once a day. And of course the CGA does not cover any problems caused by using the goods in an unreasonable way – for example if your small child fills the dishwasher with sand and you run it without noticing!

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

DonGould

3892 posts

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#544995 14-Nov-2011 09:35

scuwp: If you buy a low-capacity dishwasher but your family of eight runs it three times a day your CGA rights will not last as long as a family that runs the same dishwasheronly once a day.

This one is really interesting. The sales person needs to be clear that the product is fit for the purpose you propose to use it for. If they didn't make it clear that the product was not suited for 3 runs a day and didn't ask about your family size then all they're doing is box moving, so we can just assume that all their products are fit for a reasonable 5 year period in my limited view.

There needs to be onus on business to play fair and do their sums. Business, in my view is entitled to meet their obligations how they choose. They can do it at the sharp end with great sales service or the blunt end with soft return/refund/repair policies.

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SaltyNZ

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#544997 14-Nov-2011 09:37

DonGould: If they didn't make it clear that the product was not suited for 3 runs a day and didn't ask about your family size then all they're doing is box moving, so we can just assume that all their products are fit for a reasonable 5 year period in my limited view.

The problem would be proving that they didn't. 'Oh no Mr. Gould, you must be mistaken, all our salespeople are highly trained professionals, who would never neglect to mention such an important detail.'

Absent a video recording of the sales pitch I imagine it would be a bit of an uphill battle.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

Dunnersfella

4086 posts

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#545019 14-Nov-2011 10:18

Notes on the invoice could help...

But then you'd be reading Geekzone threads complaining about sales staff writing...
"This vacuum cleaner is not suitable for customers need, however budget has dictated they will use it to clean up after 42 long haired cats on a daily basis".

As an aside, LG has an ad on TV that states their products have a '10 year direct drive motor warranty'. So the sales person was wrong. Not quite sure it'll cover a drawer that snaps a castor due to over loading / rough treatment though ;-)

Ragnor

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#545049 14-Nov-2011 11:13

Consumer has this type of information

If you're not a member and do not have access you could buy access to this report for $5 for 7 days access. - which is not too bad.

Appliance life expectancy
http://www.consumer.org.nz/reports/appliance-life-expectancy

They give estimates for "Economic Life" and "Life expectancy" for a general list of appliances and electronics.

Economic life - according to manufacturers. This is the age at which, if the appliance breaks down, replacement is likely to be more economic than repair. To gather this information we asked 95 manufacturers and distributors about the useful life of 32 different appliances.

Life expectancy - in our view. This means how long you should expect the appliance to last, given reasonable use and perhaps some repair.

Long story short, consumer.org.nz thinks Life expectancy for a dishwasher is much higher/longer than the values talked about so far in this thread.

crackrdbycracku

1168 posts

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#545146 14-Nov-2011 13:26

scuwp: From the Consumer Affairs website:

the question “how long would a reasonable consumer expect these goods to last without developing this kind of fault?”

This is the killer because it is subjective. My grand-dad has a suitcase he bought to go to the war is it stil works blah blah... (I am not being disrespectful to anybody's grand-dad, me it was my dad who had such a suitcase and he just never got that things aren't made like they used to be)

The Consumer Guarantees Act is a good idea. The principle is that you should be able to expect the thing to do what it is advertised to do, in this case a dishwasher should wash dishes. But it should also last a reasonable amount of time.

It would be an interesting argument to make that a five year warranty was on offer so there should be a reasonable expectation that the thing last five years.

The problem is that you would probably have to make such an argument in court.

Mind you I have heard of companies going 'OK, you can have a new one' when you just say "Ah, doesn't the Consumer Guarantees Act say ...". The retailer doesn't want the hassle either.

Sorry for writing such a non-answer.

Didn't anybody tell you I was a hacker?

Ragnor

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#545206 14-Nov-2011 15:37

crackrdbycracku:

This is the killer because it is subjective.

It's subjective by design, it would be nuts to try an add specific conditions for every type of product and situation.

crackrdbycracku:

The problem is that you would probably have to make such an argument in court.

Disputes tribunal, costs bugger all other than your time to attend etc.

There is a referee who moderates a chat between you and the other party in order to sort out a remedy for the problem and can make a binding decision in the event no agreement can be made.

Referee's are usually respected members of the local community etc.

Boeingflyer

643 posts

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#545346 14-Nov-2011 20:34

DonGould:
scuwp: If you buy a low-capacity dishwasher but your family of eight runs it three times a day your CGA rights will not last as long as a family that runs the same dishwasheronly once a day.

This one is really interesting. The sales person needs to be clear that the product is fit for the purpose you propose to use it for. If they didn't make it clear that the product was not suited for 3 runs a day and didn't ask about your family size then all they're doing is box moving, so we can just assume that all their products are fit for a reasonable 5 year period in my limited view.

There needs to be onus on business to play fair and do their sums. Business, in my view is entitled to meet their obligations how they choose. They can do it at the sharp end with great sales service or the blunt end with soft return/refund/repair policies.

The consumer must make it known to the salesperson what the 'dishwasher' is going to be used for to claim under section 8 of the CGA 1993. If the consumer brought the dishwasher, relying on their own judgement that it could handle a family of 8, then they have no redress, however if they asked the salesperson to recommend a dishwasher for a family of 8 and it was 'not fit for purpose', then they would have a right of redress.

Guarantees as to fitness for particular purpose

(1) Subject to section 41, the following guarantees apply where goods are supplied to a consumer:
- (a) that the goods are reasonably fit for any particular purpose that the consumer makes known, expressly or by implication, to the supplier as the purpose for which the goods are being acquired by the consumer; and
- (b) that the goods are reasonably fit for any particular purpose for which the supplier represents that they are or will be fit.
(2) Those guarantees do not apply where the circumstances show that—
- (a) the consumer does not rely on the supplier's skill or judgment; or
- (b) it is unreasonable for the consumer to rely on the supplier's skill or judgment.

Boeingflyer

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#545366 14-Nov-2011 21:14

Have a read of the Consumer Guarantees Act 1993, it's not a hard read and you will get all the information you need. There is some good info from others on Geekzone but a lot of them just tell you to 'throw' the CGA out there and tell you to argue with the supplier without not knowing what the Act is all about.
If you know what parts of the act to state to the supplier and know exactly what your rights are you will get through the process very fast.

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0091/latest/DLM311053.html

Also the part about how long an item should last is very subjective but have a read of the below case and you will see that this person won on a fridge that broke down after 7 years.

http://www.nzlii.org/cgi-bin/sinodisp/nz/cases/NZDispT/2009/94.html?query=fridge

Also remember that 'case law' is your friend, that is whenever a judge makes a decision, it is law. If you can find an old case (judgement) that has the same details as yours, you can site it 'as law' in favor for you.