More broadband than dialup

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450 posts

Ultimate Geek

#115183 7-Mar-2008 13:13

a point worth noteing is that dialup is a kiwi share requirement so wont go away..........
Also total number of dialup accounts is very misleading. Many ISPs provide it free or on a per hour basis.
This makes it ideal for backup or travelling around NZ etc.
If Telecom or Vodafone offered competitive mobile options I think dial up would shrink to a point that it would die naturally.
cheers,
George

cyril7

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#115188 7-Mar-2008 13:31

Dailup as in a home phone is what Kiwi share requires will not go away, nor will POTs, what will change is the way its delivered, ie VOIP rather than PCM. It will be interesting to see exactly what CPE Telecom come up with, having a look around there are standards out there such as T.38 for fax which most current ATA support, and a newer one V.150 that supports upto V.90. Both these methods demodulate the modems in the ATA are reconstruct it at the other end.

Cyril

sbiddle

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#115189 7-Mar-2008 13:38

GEOMAX:
a point worth noteing is that dialup is a kiwi share requirement so wont go away..........

One small issue - the Kiwi Share/TSO doesn't cover the NGN. Once the current network is gone there is no obligation to maintain the requirements of the TSO.

GEOMAX

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Ultimate Geek

#115196 7-Mar-2008 13:51

I beg to differ....the Kiwi share does not say specify how to deliver it just guarantes the line rental wont increase more that the CPI plus 14.7k internet. How to deliver 14.7k internet via NGN will probably be easier than now. cheers George

PenultimateHop

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#115216 7-Mar-2008 14:33

POTS from an ATA or POTS distributed from the curb (both will happen, I am quite sure) will equally support dial-up in some fashion.

I wouldn't believe every media announcement...

Cyril: to transport voice effectively over ADSL (or ADSL2plus) with decent QoS you need to use separate PVCs to ensure head-of-line blocking can be avoided, which depends on the CPE having decent ATM SARs which almost none of them do. The alternative is to use PTM (available on ADSL2plus) and pre-emption for expedited frames, but this is not supported in most ETSI DSL equipment at the moment. There is no bin reservation.

cyril7

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#115221 7-Mar-2008 14:45

Cyril: to transport voice effectively over ADSL

Thanks for clarifying.

Cyril

richms

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#115222 7-Mar-2008 14:52

I have dialed up ok via a pap-2t and 2talk - only a 26k connect tho, would have expected much better being that the analog cable was about 2 meters. Was testing dialin to a vpn machine on a BRI fed pabx at the other end so short analog cable there too.

26k is about twice what they have to supply according to the govt, so they are good to go. Assuming that telecoms ata's are better and have less noise then the relativly noisy linksys gear they may actually work better then peoples existing fully analog circuits.

Richard rich.ms

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PenultimateHop

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#115224 7-Mar-2008 15:05

richms: I have dialed up ok via a pap-2t and 2talk - only a 26k connect tho, would have expected much better being that the analog cable was about 2 meters. Was testing dialin to a vpn machine on a BRI fed pabx at the other end so short analog cable there too.

26k is about twice what they have to supply according to the govt, so they are good to go. Assuming that telecoms ata's are better and have less noise then the relativly noisy linksys gear they may actually work better then peoples existing fully analog circuits.

My understanding (and I am by no means a VoIP expert) is that other than bandwidth issues - which can be resolved easily - it's a timing/clocking issue. It gets particularly bad for long held calls.

I've seen quite a few VoIP POTS networks that support 33k and not much more. But that's still dialup, and it still works.

grant_k

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#115225 7-Mar-2008 15:05

PenultimateHop: POTS from an ATA or POTS distributed from the curb (both will happen, I am quite sure) will equally support dial-up in some fashion.

PH: If POTS is distributed from the kerb, will there be any backup power supply in the event of mains failure?

That is another question I have been asked.

P.S. Thanks for your explanation above, it's much appreciated

PenultimateHop

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#115227 7-Mar-2008 15:14

grant_k: PH: If POTS is distributed from the kerb, will there be any backup power supply in the event of mains failure?

Most cabinet deployments I've seen worldwide do have backup power (usually 4-6 hours of battery). Whether Telecom chooses to deploy their cabinets in this manner remains to be seen. I would expect that there would be some, though.

Still problems for prolonged outages (e.g. South Island winter storm in 2006 or the floods in Northland etc), which usually results in field force running around with portable gensets.

Fraktul

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#115230 7-Mar-2008 15:37

T.38 and Fax/Modem services over G.711 still have quite a few issues with reliability and compatability as most of the Telcos out there are more than aware - thats not to say they dont work its just they dont work as well as they currently do on the legacy PSTN network. IMHO they never will either as it a huge amount of effort for an ever dwindeling user requirement.

maverick

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WorldxChange

#115232 7-Mar-2008 15:43

Just a few things,

Modems covers a range of standards, v22, v23 all the way up to V90 modem based services and the different hardware that runs these standards, Modems , FAx / Mdems cards all work differently , Sky Interactive, Alarming, EFTPOS, Telemetric services etc are all using an outdated technology some work better than others though through a VOIP Network,

For example EFTPOS works pretty well over our VOIP network and some SKY units (older v22 modem units) do as well, yet the V90 will generally not work MySky, So VOIP networks for Modem traffic will be a best effort service and thats the only option we will be taking, I'm afraid Modem's are going to have issues in the VOIP world and some of these different types of services, Alarm Monitoring, Interactive devices etc are going to have to develop their technolgy around moving to IP, some are doing so already AlarmNZ for example are a IP based Alarm system for the others if they don't addapt they will start to lose out as things are moving to VOIP and it's only gaining momentum...we wont be going backwards so there is oppurtunity for people out there it's just a matter of who's going to adapt and how fast.

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

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maverick

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#115233 7-Mar-2008 15:44

grant_k:
PenultimateHop: POTS from an ATA or POTS distributed from the curb (both will happen, I am quite sure) will equally support dial-up in some fashion.

PH: If POTS is distributed from the kerb, will there be any backup power supply in the event of mains failure?

That is another question I have been asked.

P.S. Thanks for your explanation above, it's much appreciated

Yes Telecom's cabinets will have backup power

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

PenultimateHop

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#115235 7-Mar-2008 15:52

maverick: Just a few things,

Modems covers a range of standards, v22, v23 all the way up to V90 modem based services and the different hardware that runs these standards, Modems , FAx / Mdems cards all work differently , Sky Interactive, Alarming, EFTPOS, Telemetric services etc are all using an outdated technology some work better than others though through a VOIP Network,

For example EFTPOS works pretty well over our VOIP network and some SKY units (older v22 modem units) do as well, yet the V90 will generally not work MySky, So VOIP networks for Modem traffic will be a best effort service and thats the only option we will be taking, I'm afraid Modem's are going to have issues in the VOIP world and some of these different types of services, Alarm Monitoring, Interactive devices etc are going to have to develop their technolgy around moving to IP, some are doing so already NZAlarms for example are a IP based Alarm system for the others if they don't addapt they will start to lose out as things are moving to VOIP and it's only gaining momentum...we wont be going backwards so there is oppurtunity for people out there it's just a matter of who's going to adapt and how fast.

Maverick,

These are all very good reasons why the incumbent will continue to support dialup services over their network. EFTPOS, Sky, and alarms are not going to go away. (650K Sky customers out there, remember).

In this case it will definitely be the telcos maintaining backwards compatibility - yes probably with some service capability reduction, but it will still work well enough.

Then the world will adapt... but forcing someone like Sky or Chubb to replace half a million end user devices is not practical and really not good for business.

maverick

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WorldxChange

#115240 7-Mar-2008 16:14

PenultimateHop:
maverick: Just a few things,

Modems covers a range of standards, v22, v23 all the way up to V90 modem based services and the different hardware that runs these standards, Modems , FAx / Mdems cards all work differently , Sky Interactive, Alarming, EFTPOS, Telemetric services etc are all using an outdated technology some work better than others though through a VOIP Network,

For example EFTPOS works pretty well over our VOIP network and some SKY units (older v22 modem units) do as well, yet the V90 will generally not work MySky, So VOIP networks for Modem traffic will be a best effort service and thats the only option we will be taking, I'm afraid Modem's are going to have issues in the VOIP world and some of these different types of services, Alarm Monitoring, Interactive devices etc are going to have to develop their technolgy around moving to IP, some are doing so already NZAlarms for example are a IP based Alarm system for the others if they don't addapt they will start to lose out as things are moving to VOIP and it's only gaining momentum...we wont be going backwards so there is oppurtunity for people out there it's just a matter of who's going to adapt and how fast.

Maverick,

These are all very good reasons why the incumbent will continue to support dialup services over their network. EFTPOS, Sky, and alarms are not going to go away. (650K Sky customers out there, remember).

In this case it will definitely be the telcos maintaining backwards compatibility - yes probably with some service capability reduction, but it will still work well enough.

Then the world will adapt... but forcing someone like Sky or Chubb to replace half a million end user devices is not practical and really not good for business.

I'm actaully very aware of this and the numbers

, just pointing out that in the next few years as we see diaup being passed in Numbers you will see the same for VOIP services, these products and service offering based around modem connections need to be aware of this and start planning an exit stratergy for the brave new world, remember here that Telecom no longer puts copper in the ground, all new subdivisions will be fibre, pure and simple it is IP based services to the home, this is just the start and is quite small but this is how services will be delivered in the future and will continue to grow.

So for the new home owners what do they do they can have sky no problem as well as there IP services over fibre it just means Sky interactive isn't going to work, while the numbers are small at present no biggee for Sky and they will want the return on the current units they have , but as numbers grow and they see less revenue from interactive either they will have a statergy to bring new stb with IP based features or they won't purely their call but the home owner will forego his sky interactive before he will give up his Fibre Based Phone and Internet services of that ther is no doubt and the reason will be this...they won't have an option copper based services is no longer an option for them.

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

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