Fibre broadband and how it affects old copper wire landline phones

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#1982399 23-Mar-2018 23:28

As for WiFi signals, I find that I always get better battery life on my phones when they are connected to WiFi for most of the day, compared to mobile data for most of the day. No surprises as more power is needed to get a signal to the cellphone tower that is on the other side of the valley, compared to the WiFi access point that is on the other side of the room.

I have commercial WiFi APs in my house. The instructions said that I should not get too close to them when they are operating. The minimum distance was something like 1/2 a meter. And due to the inverse square law, doubling that distance to 1 meter reduces your exposure 4 times. Double it again to 2 meters, now 16 times lower exposure etc. So not a problem at all for ceiling mounted APs.

Only worry about WiFi exposure if you are using your router as a pillow. Or if your cat likes to sit on top of it. Both of these problems can be easily solved by getting a ceiling mounted AP.

Most of the FUD around radiation from electronic devices. Was caused by faulty Tv's in the USA around the 1950s. There was a model which would get a fault that would cause excessive voltage to be fed into the CRT tube. And this would cause the screen to produce X rays. (while the TV would otherwise work fine) Which of course was really bad. There was a law change after that, forcing TV manufacturers to install over voltage protection circuits into their Tv's.

frednz

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#1982447 24-Mar-2018 09:48

Aredwood: What exactly are you wanting to achieve? If it is a guaranteed reliable phone, then you need a satellite phone. And even then, not all satellite phone companies provide full Coverage to NZ.

After the Kaikoura earthquake, the Kaikoura telephone exchange kept on working. But the earthquake destroyed all of its uplink connections. This meant that you could only make local calls to other people connected to the same exchange. Chorus had to send someone to the exchange with a satellite phone, so that any 111 calls could be patched through to the emergency services. So having a working landline phone wasn't actually much use in the immediate aftermath of the earthquake.

During the last major quake in Wellington the power went out almost immediately but we were still able to make calls using our old landline phone. Also, during an extended power cut, no matter what the cause, it's very useful to have a landline phone that still works. Sure, there may be occasions when even a landline phone doesn't work, but I still think it's very worthwhile having one in addition to having adequate mobile data for your mobile phone.

Sure it would be nice to have a satellite phone, but how many people would own these as part of their disaster kits? I thought they were mainly used by people going into remote parts of NZ for various activities.

frednz

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#1982457 24-Mar-2018 10:00

Jase2985:

you need to look at the type of radiation it is

where are their studies? where are their results

anyone can stand there and say something is bad but with no evidence and backing it means little to nothing.

OK, fair enough, I didn't really want this thread to degenerate into a long discussion about whether radiation from Wi-Fi etc adversely affects your health! You either believe that strong RF in your house adversely affects your health or you don't. I don't think there is any strong and conclusive scientific evidence that says consistent exposure to RF is harmful or whether it is not harmful, but let's leave this topic to another thread sometime when it's really fun to take the mickey out of anyone who believes you shouldn't work very close to a strong Wi-Fi signal! It's the same with energy medicine, you either believe in things like acupuncture or not.

richms

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#1982463 24-Mar-2018 10:23

wifi is not strong RF, it is milliwatts, barely able to function after going thru 2 walls. Yeah it will be a strong field when you are immediately adjacent to the router, but once a meter or 2 from the accesspoint there are many stronger signals all over the place blasting thru your house from every direction that you don't know about without a spectrum analyzer.

Unless you want to be like that kooky woman on waiheke and build a wall to block it, or put in a Faraday cage when you build then wifi is the least of your worries about RF exposure.

As for the phone problem, fiber will keep working if the ONT (and possibly router) is powered. Expecting telcos to provide a complete low speed copper network just to be able to power your equipment in an outage, which can only do one thing which is less and less relevent to most people is not reasonable. Copper is deteriorated, its in need of replacement in most of the country that was not subdivided in the last 30 years, the equipment it connects to is obsolete in most cases and needs replacement. To spend anything on that is foolish and no telco should be expected to do so when there are cheaper better solutions which have additional income streams for them.

They should not have to spend money on making it so that you don't have to power your own equipment just to feel slightly safer incase there was to be a disaster. You can power it yourself with any number of technologies.

Richard rich.ms

webwat

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#1983553 26-Mar-2018 15:16

frednz:

I have been told that, when you get fibre broadband installed, unless you request otherwise, your old copper wire landline phones are disconnected and your phones are instead connected through your new fibre installation.

When your landline phones are integrated with fibre, this means that, if there is a power cut, or if you turn your fibre broadband off, then your phones also go down. Therefore, in the event of a power cut as a result of an earthquake etc, your old landline phone cannot be used and you are dependent on using mobile data on a mobile phone.

Until your mobile batteries are all flat. Then you are limited to yelling at your neighbours, or going for a walk to buy ice for the freezer only to find the petrol stations close up when the power goes out. Cant even buy petrol for your little generator. Bring out the solar panels and gas burner, you are virtually camping anyway.

frednz:

At present, we can turn our broadband modem off when it is not in use and this has no effect on our landline copper wire phones or any other systems, such as the house alarm etc.

But why would you, unless the thunder and lightning is getting a bit worrying.

frednz:

I understand that, if you are getting fibre broadband installed and you want to retain your old copper wire landline phones, this is possible but it costs a lot more (as much as $50 per month) to run both naked broadband and a copper wire phone system.

Can anyone confirm please that I have correctly stated the position above.

If you want a copper phone line then the line rental has to come out of either the broadband fee or the phone fee, but still has to be paid somehow. So roughly correct yes.

frednz:

Also, I would be interested to know whether anyone who has fibre broadband has thought it’s worthwhile to pay the extra to retain the old copper wire landline phone system.

If your phones are integrated with your fibre broadband system, do you leave your broadband modem on all the time or do you turn it off when you are not using internet in order to save power and the amount of RF in your house?

You mean you have a modem with built in WIFI? Have you been listening to crackpots worried about non-ionising radiation? Modems and routers don't produce dangerous radio signals so don't worry so much. It doesn't use much power either.

frednz:

Also, when your phones are integrated with fibre, in the event of power cuts, have you experienced any difficulties with other electrical systems in your home, such as alarm systems etc?

Usually monitored alarms work better with an internet connection instead of dialup, but if your alarm still dials out then it only matters whether your phone system has enough power.

hio77:

If you opt for a provider who uses the ONT to provide a phone service, it does not matter if your router is on. purely that the ONT is on.

Assuming you battery backup your ONT (which there are easily available plugs in the likes of PBTech to allow this) then service will be retained till power is restored.

Or until the battery goes flat... These things happen, especially if the battery is already worn out. And if you battery backup the ONT, why not do the same for your router depending on how long you need the service to run for during a power cut. You might need an extra backup!

Time to find a new industry!

webwat

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#1983556 26-Mar-2018 15:21

frednz:

Aredwood: What exactly are you wanting to achieve? If it is a guaranteed reliable phone, then you need a satellite phone. And even then, not all satellite phone companies provide full Coverage to NZ.

After the Kaikoura earthquake, the Kaikoura telephone exchange kept on working. But the earthquake destroyed all of its uplink connections. This meant that you could only make local calls to other people connected to the same exchange. Chorus had to send someone to the exchange with a satellite phone, so that any 111 calls could be patched through to the emergency services. So having a working landline phone wasn't actually much use in the immediate aftermath of the earthquake.

During the last major quake in Wellington the power went out almost immediately but we were still able to make calls using our old landline phone. Also, during an extended power cut, no matter what the cause, it's very useful to have a landline phone that still works. Sure, there may be occasions when even a landline phone doesn't work, but I still think it's very worthwhile having one in addition to having adequate mobile data for your mobile phone.

Sure it would be nice to have a satellite phone, but how many people would own these as part of their disaster kits? I thought they were mainly used by people going into remote parts of NZ for various activities.

Turns out that getting fibre run down the street can cause a digger to go through your phone lines anyway. Took half a day to get them back.

Time to find a new industry!

frednz

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#1983768 26-Mar-2018 19:46

webwat:

frednz:

I have been told that, when you get fibre broadband installed, unless you request otherwise, your old copper wire landline phones are disconnected and your phones are instead connected through your new fibre installation.

When your landline phones are integrated with fibre, this means that, if there is a power cut, or if you turn your fibre broadband off, then your phones also go down. Therefore, in the event of a power cut as a result of an earthquake etc, your old landline phone cannot be used and you are dependent on using mobile data on a mobile phone.

Until your mobile batteries are all flat. Then you are limited to yelling at your neighbours, or going for a walk to buy ice for the freezer only to find the petrol stations close up when the power goes out. Cant even buy petrol for your little generator. Bring out the solar panels and gas burner, you are virtually camping anyway.

Thanks for your replies. There have been a few references in this thread to using battery back-up systems so that landline phones will still work for a while during a power cut when they have been connected through fibre. Don't you think such back-up systems should be automatically put in place by installers when fibre is installed?

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

richms

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#1983770 26-Mar-2018 19:52

frednz:

Thanks for your replies. There have been a few references in this thread to using battery back-up systems so that landline phones will still work for a while during a power cut when they have been connected through fibre. Don't you think such back-up systems should be automatically put in place by installers when fibre is installed?

No, its added cost at install time, larger equipment that has to go in, and added maintenance costs to the RSP that provides service.

From asking around people I know who have fiber, probably less than a third are getting any voice service from their internet provider.

Then you have problems where very few providers are using the ports on the ONT for voice - only really spark among the big ones is all I know of, so any solution that chorus or whoever provide would need to cater to customers swapping out routers etc, so need to either be a 230 volt backup that runs the risk of people plugging other stuff into and killing, or else a DC low voltage one that would need the correct voltage and plug selected by the end user, which is a recipie for something getting toasted.

Not everyone is wed to a legacy phone, so expecting there to be backup hardware installed by default for all installs is just very wasteful IMO.

Richard rich.ms

Jase2985

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#1983776 26-Mar-2018 19:58

the problem is it depends on the system and the device used for battery backup. also the location you want your stuff in. + the fact YOU would need to pay extra for it.

most people dont care

hio77

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#1983783 26-Mar-2018 20:11

https://www.pbtech.co.nz/product/UPSPSD1100/PowerShield-PSDCMIN1218-Mini-UPS-12VDC-1Amp-18Watt

Is about the simplest off the shelf product out there for keeping the ONT powered.

There are some more cool ones such as http://www.constantvigil.com/shop,shop,2,1,001.html

#include <std_disclaimer>

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

frednz

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#1983788 26-Mar-2018 20:24

richms:

frednz:

Thanks for your replies. There have been a few references in this thread to using battery back-up systems so that landline phones will still work for a while during a power cut when they have been connected through fibre. Don't you think such back-up systems should be automatically put in place by installers when fibre is installed?

No, its added cost at install time, larger equipment that has to go in, and added maintenance costs to the RSP that provides service.

From asking around people I know who have fiber, probably less than a third are getting any voice service from their internet provider.

Then you have problems where very few providers are using the ports on the ONT for voice - only really spark among the big ones is all I know of, so any solution that chorus or whoever provide would need to cater to customers swapping out routers etc, so need to either be a 230 volt backup that runs the risk of people plugging other stuff into and killing, or else a DC low voltage one that would need the correct voltage and plug selected by the end user, which is a recipie for something getting toasted.

Not everyone is wed to a legacy phone, so expecting there to be backup hardware installed by default for all installs is just very wasteful IMO.

Well, at the very least, when fibre broadband is installed, for people who have landline phones that are then connected through fibre, don't you think the installer should double check with these people that they are fully aware that their landline phones will no longer work during a power cut and tell them the options that are available for battery back-up should they require this?

richms

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#1983791 26-Mar-2018 20:29

Up to the retailers to do that, which IME they do tell people about when moving over.

Richard rich.ms

Jase2985

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#1983797 26-Mar-2018 20:36

nothing to do with the installer

Aredwood

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#1983800 26-Mar-2018 20:39

frednz: Well, at the very least, when fibre broadband is installed, for people who have landline phones that are then connected through fibre, don't you think the installer should double check with these people that they are fully aware that their landline phones will no longer work during a power cut and tell them the options that are available for battery back-up should they require this?

Anyone know if Spark asks that question to the people it is switching from copper landlines to landline via 4G?

I have my own battery back up system for the ONT, router etc. That is charged from both mains and a 270W solar panel. And yes it does have provision for charging cellphones as well.

For most people, A backup voice service is as easy as a cellphone and a car charger for the Phone. No point in adding on extra monthly fees to cover the cost of offering a battery back up service, that most people don't want or need.

hio77

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Lizard Networks

#1983805 26-Mar-2018 20:43

Aredwood:
frednz: Well, at the very least, when fibre broadband is installed, for people who have landline phones that are then connected through fibre, don't you think the installer should double check with these people that they are fully aware that their landline phones will no longer work during a power cut and tell them the options that are available for battery back-up should they require this?

Anyone know if Spark asks that question to the people it is switching from copper landlines to landline via 4G?

I have my own battery back up system for the ONT, router etc. That is charged from both mains and a 270W solar panel. And yes it does have provision for charging cellphones as well.

For most people, A backup voice service is as easy as a cellphone and a car charger for the Phone. No point in adding on extra monthly fees to cover the cost of offering a battery back up service, that most people don't want or need.

It's on the list, Yes.

#include <std_disclaimer>

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

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