Feedback wanted on protections for consumers that Chorus wants to move off copper and broadband services

Forums › New Zealand Broadband › Feedback wanted on protections for consumers that Chorus wants to move off copper and broadband services

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#2489467 22-May-2020 13:58

A couple of things people aren't mentioning here.

When a natural disaster occurs and power is disrupted the legacy POTS line is "often" not impacted. As a telco engineer we saw the benefits of this during both Christchurch Earthquakes.

There is no government requirement (as far as I know) for a mandatory off-mains up-time for a cell site. Battery upgrade programs are incredibly expensive, and with stable mains networks can often be deferred for more important maintenance. During the Canterbury earthquake some standby generators deployed to critical cellular sites went "missing" soon after being set up. Cellular has it's limitations - especially when idiots set fire to them.

When troubles come, as they invariably do - you'll be much better off with a legacy POTs service and a roll of cash hidden in the house. Plastic without EFTPOS has no value.

Personally - I'm still on VDSL and POT's line due to my older monitored alarm which will not work over SIP. Yes - I know about options for older panels but as soon as I pay to migrate the panel, my monitoring costs double as well.

Frankly until I absolutely have to, I'll stay on copper.

Just my 20 cents

- These thoughts are my own and are in no way, shape, or form, necessarily those of my employer :)

sbiddle

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#2489781 22-May-2020 20:01

nzbsgfan:

A couple of things people aren't mentioning here.

When a natural disaster occurs and power is disrupted the legacy POTS line is "often" not impacted. As a telco engineer we saw the benefits of this during both Christchurch Earthquakes.

But "legacy POTS" hasn't been a thing for a few years now as people have been moved off that. We've seen a growing number of copper voice customers all delivered service via ISAM/V cards rather than NEAX and 99% of these are totally oblivious to this because the end user experience is the same.

nzbsgfan

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#2490038 23-May-2020 12:37

sbiddle:
nzbsgfan:

A couple of things people aren't mentioning here.

When a natural disaster occurs and power is disrupted the legacy POTS line is "often" not impacted. As a telco engineer we saw the benefits of this during both Christchurch Earthquakes.

But "legacy POTS" hasn't been a thing for a few years now as people have been moved off that. We've seen a growing number of copper voice customers all delivered service via ISAM/V cards rather than NEAX and 99% of these are totally oblivious to this because the end user experience is the same.

Wow - I didn’t know the change over was advancing so quickly - thanks for the update !

Does this system still use copper pairs all the way to the switch or is copper reticulation from a local cabinet ?

Either way It’s great that my alarm company can still monitor my system regardless.

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#2490074 23-May-2020 15:03

Would be interested if anyone has an update on the number of NEAXs that have been decommissioned I understood it was quite considerable.

Cyril

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#2490122 23-May-2020 17:04

nzbsgfan:

Wow - I didn’t know the change over was advancing so quickly - thanks for the update !

Does this system still use copper pairs all the way to the switch or is copper reticulation from a local cabinet ?

Either way It’s great that my alarm company can still monitor my system regardless.

Well technically it actually started about 10 years ago. When the cabinetisation project was underway there were a number of cabinets that ended up providing voice services from the cabinet via a a VMUX solution which did VoIP over the backhaul fibre to the NEAX.

In the past couple of years that's been replaced by a few providers doing voice from the ISAM-V card in the cabinet or exchange. It's only copper from the cabinet to the house - it's VoIP from the cabinet back to your RSP's network.

I would not be relying on an alarm working over this, the simple fact is alarm companies should have migrated everybody away from copper right now, but some choose not to for the very same reasons they weren't doing that 10 years ago - many live in a world where they chose to ignore changes in technology, or simply want to continue providing a copper based solution that they make a lot more $$ from.

nztim

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#2490151 23-May-2020 19:03

cyril7: Would be interested if anyone has an update on the number of NEAXs that have been decommissioned I understood it was quite considerable.

Cyril

Any RSP with their APIs can tell if a line is a NEAX line or something else

The only end users who will know its happened is someone who still had a rotary dial phone for nostalgic purposes suddenly cant dial out

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

Fourpeak

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#2490179 23-May-2020 19:52

antonknee: Exactly why (IMO) the fibre rollout should have been done a) without requiring RSP involvement and b) without requiring neighbour consent. The arrangement in place now where an effected neighbour can object in very limited grounds strikes an ok balance, and this is how it should have been all along.

But what’s done is done.

I disagree. Chorus cant be trusted to do a proper job so unless that changes I think it still should be full written consent. I friend of mine owns a unit and chorus turned up without notice and carried out the job while he was the work. needless to say he is not happy with the wavy saw cut and cable only 50mm below the surface on the driveway. should have been thrusted/drilled in like the power companies do when undergrounding.

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nztim

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#2490183 23-May-2020 20:03

Fourpeak:
antonknee: Exactly why (IMO) the fibre rollout should have been done a) without requiring RSP involvement and b) without requiring neighbour consent. The arrangement in place now where an effected neighbour can object in very limited grounds strikes an ok balance, and this is how it should have been all along.

But what’s done is done.

I disagree. Chorus cant be trusted to do a proper job so unless that changes I think it still should be full written consent. I friend of mine owns a unit and chorus turned up without notice and carried out the job while he was the work. needless to say he is not happy with the wavy saw cut and cable only 50mm below the surface on the driveway. should have been thrusted/drilled in like the power companies do when undergrounding.

Or they will tack it along a fence!

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#2490215 23-May-2020 21:39

nztim:

BarTender:

I would doubt that Spark would offer VoIP over UFB these days and actively look to move everyone onto Wireless as it is cheaper.

I expect that to be met with considerable backlash from some people

I wouldn't be so sure. My mother is one of those traditional sort of people who has stayed with the same telco the same powerco same <whatever>co ever since my parents bought their place in the 70's--basically very change adverse. Spark rang her up one day and offered to move her to WBB and she accepted. Proudly told me a few days later when I visited that Spark offered her cheaper phone/BB and a new router--but wanted to know why her phone wasn't working! Ended up helping her move her phone to connect to the WBB and all was good. She was chuffed that she could put her phone anywhere (tho she was happy to take my suggestion to put the WBB unit on the side of the house nearest the Spark site over the road). I was fairly surprised as she usually doesn't like change... But she was really happy to get on a cheaper plan, got better quality calls (apparently!) and still got enough BB data.

I suspect with the right incentives and support, moving a lot of people over from POTS to wireless can be easily done without too much backlash. If my mother can do it....!

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#2490299 23-May-2020 22:50

KiwiSurfer:

I wouldn't be so sure. My mother is one of those traditional sort of people who has stayed with the same telco the same powerco same <whatever>co ever since my parents bought their place in the 70's--basically very change adverse. Spark rang her up one day and offered to move her to WBB and she accepted. Proudly told me a few days later when I visited that Spark offered her cheaper phone/BB and a new router--but wanted to know why her phone wasn't working! Ended up helping her move her phone to connect to the WBB and all was good. She was chuffed that she could put her phone anywhere (tho she was happy to take my suggestion to put the WBB unit on the side of the house nearest the Spark site over the road). I was fairly surprised as she usually doesn't like change... But she was really happy to get on a cheaper plan, got better quality calls (apparently!) and still got enough BB data.

I suspect with the right incentives and support, moving a lot of people over from POTS to wireless can be easily done without too much backlash. If my mother can do it....!

Quite often these sorts of activities are done with the support of inhome visits for setups, particularly for elderly.

Your right, It's actually a pretty damn good product for them when done right.

Personally, sending out a modem and saying plug it in has always been a horrible idea for this sort of age bracket.

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Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

webwat

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#2490300 23-May-2020 22:54

I was surprised when my parents said they want to get fibre so I setup an outlet nicely labeled so the contractor could plug in the ISP router into the house phone wiring. They generally don't seem to know what to do with house wiring and in this case they told my parents to move a cordless phone into the office next to the router and just accept that no other phones will work. Also no option was given to put any kind of battery backup on the ONT/router, at least it should be an option with explanations as to why.

ComCom needs to set a requirement that existing devices in the house (handsets, medical monitoring units etc) should be connected to the new service before anyone is allowed to deactivate the copper. The customer should also understand the limitations of fibre during a power cut, perhaps with a requirement for battery backups on voice-only services where the user has unreliable or patchy mobile service.

Time to find a new industry!

nztim

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#2490301 23-May-2020 22:59

webwat:

ComCom needs to set a requirement that existing devices in the house (handsets, medical monitoring units etc) should be connected to the new service before anyone is allowed to deactivate the copper. The customer should also understand the limitations of fibre during a power cut, perhaps with a requirement for battery backups on voice-only services where the user has unreliable or patchy mobile service.

Eftpos, medical alarms, home alarms while they *MAY* work are *NOT* supported once a customer moves off the NEAX

These need to be changed to IP solutions prior to any change of copper phone line

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

richms

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#2490307 23-May-2020 23:30

Just remove all price controls from areas with fiber and let the price go up and up and up as people come off it and the fixed costs of the network have fewer connections to distribute over. That will speed up places axing their old fax lines, legacy phone systems with basic rate lines, and antique medical alarms with no cellular in them.

Not fair to expect chorus to keep the lights on for the cabinets and exchanges when there is only a minority of people using it and lose money as a result.

Richard rich.ms

sbiddle

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#2490369 24-May-2020 09:02

webwat:

I was surprised when my parents said they want to get fibre so I setup an outlet nicely labeled so the contractor could plug in the ISP router into the house phone wiring. They generally don't seem to know what to do with house wiring and in this case they told my parents to move a cordless phone into the office next to the router and just accept that no other phones will work. Also no option was given to put any kind of battery backup on the ONT/router, at least it should be an option with explanations as to why.

ComCom needs to set a requirement that existing devices in the house (handsets, medical monitoring units etc) should be connected to the new service before anyone is allowed to deactivate the copper. The customer should also understand the limitations of fibre during a power cut, perhaps with a requirement for battery backups on voice-only services where the user has unreliable or patchy mobile service.

If you did not specify you wanted integrated phone wiring the installer will not proceed with this at the time of the install - you can't expect somebody do do something they were not asked to do.

As for the UPS situation this has been discussed pretty extensively by the industry (including MBIE) on multiple occasions, and there have been multiple threads on here over the years every time another consulation paper goes out discussing the reasons. The reasons why a UPS is not installed are pretty clear, but the case for an end user installing their own (and more importantly then being responsible for the maintenance of it) are pretty solid.

nztim

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#2490401 24-May-2020 11:26

sbiddle:

As for the UPS situation this has been discussed pretty extensively by the industry (including MBIE) on multiple occasions, and there have been multiple threads on here over the years every time another consulation paper goes out discussing the reasons. The reasons why a UPS is not installed are pretty clear, but the case for an end user installing their own (and more importantly then being responsible for the maintenance of it) are pretty solid.

The draft 111 contact code (Released March 11) states:

6.4

that a provider must supply a vulnerable consumer, at no cost to that consumer, with an appropriate means of contacting the 111 emergency service that can be operated for the minimum period in the event of a power failure at the vulnerable consumer’s premises

6.5 that a provider cannot deny or cease supply of a retail landline service on the basis that the provider knows or suspects a consumer is, or may become, a vulnerable consumer

I interpret that as either

A) a basic mobile phone and and a USB battery pack (that has to be kept charged) - Assuming they have adequate mobile phone coverage

B) a UPS to keep the ONT (and RGW if the line is provided in that manner) or in the case of Fixed Wireless the RGW Powered

TBH I think providers should be forced to provide voice over the ONT not the RGW for vulnerable customers and the LFC be responsible for keeping the ONT powered (however it wishes to do so), along with education that the vulnerable customers cordless phone will not work in the event of power failure and require a corded phone in an emergency.

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

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