Before you post another message about fast broadband, read this...

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#400291 4-Nov-2010 17:50

Latency of VDSL2 is much lower than ADSL2 even with the interleave off the latter, expect 15-25mS but as others have said thats just your end, its the other you have to worry about.

Cyril

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#400424 4-Nov-2010 23:43

Don't forget that particular organization (ISCR) receives funding from Telecom NZ.
In my opinion some of the conclusions in that report are clearly wrong. I will post my thoughts when I have some time tomorrow.
Interesting reading on the ISCR and Bronwyn Howell from InternetNZ and TUANZ

Talkiet

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#400428 4-Nov-2010 23:50

savag3: Don't forget that particular organization (ISCR) receives funding from Telecom NZ.
In my opinion some of the conclusions in that report are clearly wrong. I will post my thoughts when I have some time tomorrow.

I look forward to it :-) Personally I believe that their methodology and the quoted research is sound - it certainly matches with a lot of the evidence I have seen based on a substantial amount of ongoing ADSL HTTP performance testing.

Just because someone sponsors research doesn't automatically invalidate it.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

stuzzo

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#400491 5-Nov-2010 09:22

Can we just be straight on one point Talkiet....you are an employee or otherwise paid representative of Telecom who is tasked with promoting the business interests of Telecom Corporation on such esteemed publications as Geekzone?

Talkiet

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#400505 5-Nov-2010 09:46

stuzzo: Can we just be straight on one point Talkiet....you are an employee or otherwise paid representative of Telecom who is tasked with promoting the business interests of Telecom Corporation on such esteemed publications as Geekzone?

I've _NEVER_ shilled for any of the companies I have worked at, and yes, I am an employee of Telecom - I have never hidden it. It's right there under my name on the left, and I frequently add a disclaimer in the text of posts if I think it's something that could be misconstrued.

I am NOT tasked to promote Telecom on GZ or anywhere else.

If you have an issue with the information I have presented, or the validity of my arguments, let's hear it.

I'm fanatically interested in broadband performance, and the article I linked has some accurate and interesting points that I haven't seen too many people in the media bother offering as a counterpoint to the "100mbps for all" headline.

I won't create another account on here (or any website) to post anonymously. I'm quite happy to have my affiliation with Telecom public. In fact, I asked Mauricio to add the Telecom tag to my account specifically so I couldn't be accused of being anything but transparent.

Regards
Neil G

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

wjw

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#400564 5-Nov-2010 11:01

If you watch some of the talks from Velocity 2010 (Web Performance and Operations Seminar), you'll see they support whats written in this paper. Latency is the key to website performance and user capture. If the site takes too long to load users click off.

These talks are from companies such as Amazon, Yahoo and Google, they can't all be wrong????

http://en.oreilly.com/velocity2010

stuzzo

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#400649 5-Nov-2010 11:45

Talkiet:
stuzzo: Can we just be straight on one point Talkiet....you are an employee or otherwise paid representative of Telecom who is tasked with promoting the business interests of Telecom Corporation on such esteemed publications as Geekzone?

I've _NEVER_ shilled for any of the companies I have worked at, and yes, I am an employee of Telecom - I have never hidden it. It's right there under my name on the left, and I frequently add a disclaimer in the text of posts if I think it's something that could be misconstrued.

I am NOT tasked to promote Telecom on GZ or anywhere else.

If you have an issue with the information I have presented, or the validity of my arguments, let's hear it.

I'm fanatically interested in broadband performance, and the article I linked has some accurate and interesting points that I haven't seen too many people in the media bother offering as a counterpoint to the "100mbps for all" headline.

I won't create another account on here (or any website) to post anonymously. I'm quite happy to have my affiliation with Telecom public. In fact, I asked Mauricio to add the Telecom tag to my account specifically so I couldn't be accused of being anything but transparent.

Regards
Neil G

Glad we've clarified that.

This latency area just seems completely obvious. Surely the major players contend with this right now. If Trade Me wanted to compete with eBay in America they wouldn't attempt to do it from New Zealand, they would set up servers over there but use the New Zealand business model (they may be able to keep their key people and organisation here though), whereas a smaller enterprise might find itself able to work from NZ for it's type of services or at least for a start.

FTTH is about a whole new range of services and technlogies that largely depend on capacity but where somewhat improved latency wouldn't hurt.

The other thing that could well come into play is that in the next decade or two light won't have to go through the electronic switching phase. Likely all the switching and logic circuits will be light based themselves greatly decreasing latency, that's if the current research thrust bears out and you wouldn't bet against that.

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Talkiet

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#400664 5-Nov-2010 11:57

stuzzo:

This latency area just seems completely obvious. Surely the major players contend with this right now. If Trade Me wanted to compete with eBay in America they wouldn't attempt to do it from New Zealand, they would set up servers over there but use the New Zealand business model, whereas a smaller enterprise might find itself able to work from NZ for it's type of services or at least for a start. They may be able to keep their key people and organisation here though.

FTTH is about a whole new range of services and technlogies that largely depend on capacity but where somewhat improved latency wouldn't hurt.

The other thing that could well come into play is that in the next decade or two light won't have to go through the electronic switching phase. Likely all the switching and logic circuits will be light based themselves greatly decreasing latency, that's if the current research thrust bears out and you wouldn't bet against that.

Some good points to consider... Certainly if someone in NZ wanted to compete with someone like eBay in the US market then yes, as you say, they'd have little choice but to host in the US (if website performance was a critical factor)... Either that, or break some laws of physics :-)

Switching delay is actually pretty minor compared to propagation delay. Figures I have seen seem to suggest switching delay in telco level gear is in the order of hundreds of microseconds for typical sized frames. In the core, there's usually no designed congestion so no queueing delay should be present.

I think the major contributor is going to remain propagation delay, and we could get more improvements out of a flatter design than moving to optical processing.

I did point out initially that this issue was specifically tested with HTTP. There are many ways that 100mbps fibre would be superior to current technologies, although there are more layered caveats with most of these too:

- P2P ... Having many different sessions to different remote hosts will hugely improve aggregate throughput.
- non-tcp based communications.
- (as has been pointed out) access to nearby resources will be improved - although even latency within NZ can place significant limits on the efficiency of TCP for a single thread or small number of threads.

There are more, and I'm sure there are heaps I haven't thought of - but there are very few new applications that I've found that would be enabled by FTTH for regular consumers.

Remember, fibre isn't new. YOU can buy it TODAY. Anyone with a killer app idea just waiting for fibre to make their millions shouldn't be waiting! (see note 1 below)

Cheers - N

note 1: From whatever provider you like!

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

freitasm

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#400699 5-Nov-2010 12:29

stuzzo:
Talkiet:
stuzzo: Can we just be straight on one point Talkiet....you are an employee or otherwise paid representative of Telecom who is tasked with promoting the business interests of Telecom Corporation on such esteemed publications as Geekzone?

I've _NEVER_ shilled for any of the companies I have worked at, and yes, I am an employee of Telecom - I have never hidden it. It's right there under my name on the left, and I frequently add a disclaimer in the text of posts if I think it's something that could be misconstrued.

I am NOT tasked to promote Telecom on GZ or anywhere else.

If you have an issue with the information I have presented, or the validity of my arguments, let's hear it.

I'm fanatically interested in broadband performance, and the article I linked has some accurate and interesting points that I haven't seen too many people in the media bother offering as a counterpoint to the "100mbps for all" headline.

I won't create another account on here (or any website) to post anonymously. I'm quite happy to have my affiliation with Telecom public. In fact, I asked Mauricio to add the Telecom tag to my account specifically so I couldn't be accused of being anything but transparent.

Regards
Neil G

Glad we've clarified that.

I don't know why this was even a concern in first place. His association with Telecom New Zealand is clearly noted in his profile. The only person with access to adding a company name to a profile is myself - not even moderators have this kind of access.

So it's obvious there is nothing to consider there. If he was pretending to be someone else, or blatantly advertising company/products he'd have been banned before. Moderators have pretty much freedom to ban anyone around, and I very rarely overturned their decision.

So I think this is well beyond any explanation being required now.

Ragnor

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#400754 5-Nov-2010 13:39

cyril7: Latency of VDSL2 is much lower than ADSL2 even with the interleave off the latter, expect 15-25mS but as others have said thats just your end, its the other you have to worry about.

Cyril

I see 8-10ms in for the first few domestic hops in tracert's on my ADSL2+ connection at home. In Auckland on Telecom with interleaving off.

Used to see ~16ms on Xnet and Telstra, I assume this is because Telecom handover closer to my location so there is less time spent on contended UBA backhaul.

Most other ISP's only do 1-2 handover locations from Telecom Wholesale backhaul to their network.

stuzzo

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#400769 5-Nov-2010 14:00

freitasm:
stuzzo:
Talkiet:
stuzzo: Can we just be straight on one point Talkiet....you are an employee or otherwise paid representative of Telecom who is tasked with promoting the business interests of Telecom Corporation on such esteemed publications as Geekzone?

I've _NEVER_ shilled for any of the companies I have worked at, and yes, I am an employee of Telecom - I have never hidden it. It's right there under my name on the left, and I frequently add a disclaimer in the text of posts if I think it's something that could be misconstrued.

I am NOT tasked to promote Telecom on GZ or anywhere else.

If you have an issue with the information I have presented, or the validity of my arguments, let's hear it.

I'm fanatically interested in broadband performance, and the article I linked has some accurate and interesting points that I haven't seen too many people in the media bother offering as a counterpoint to the "100mbps for all" headline.

I won't create another account on here (or any website) to post anonymously. I'm quite happy to have my affiliation with Telecom public. In fact, I asked Mauricio to add the Telecom tag to my account specifically so I couldn't be accused of being anything but transparent.

Regards
Neil G

Glad we've clarified that.

I don't know why this was even a concern in first place. His association with Telecom New Zealand is clearly noted in his profile. The only person with access to adding a company name to a profile is myself - not even moderators have this kind of access.

So it's obvious there is nothing to consider there. If he was pretending to be someone else, or blatantly advertising company/products he'd have been banned before. Moderators have pretty much freedom to ban anyone around, and I very rarely overturned their decision.

So I think this is well beyond any explanation being required now.

If he has Telecom in his signature I would have thought it would imply that he in some way the sanction or instruction of his employer to speak on their behalf.

If not why have it there. Most people work for someone.

Talkiet

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#400774 5-Nov-2010 14:09

stuzzo: If he has Telecom in his signature I would have thought it would imply that he in some way the sanction or instruction of his employer to speak on their behalf.

If not why have it there. Most people work for someone.

I've answered this is more detail through a PM, but for anyone watching, I can answer in one word.

"Transparency"

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

stuzzo

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#400790 5-Nov-2010 14:31

Talkie:

Remember, fibre isn't new. YOU can buy it TODAY. Anyone with a killer app idea just waiting for fibre to make their millions shouldn't be waiting! (see note 1 below)!

There's the small issue of a few billion dollars to lay it though. Even your killer app needs economy of scale. It's not as easy as putting a satellite dish on someone's roof either.

It occurs to me that Telecom could almost have avoided a government funded roll out of FTTH if they had just done one thing...kept the punters happy...and that would primarily have been to have focused on the back-haul restrictions and brought down international bandwidth rates quicker.

Ultimately, when the public aren't happy, politicians have to act and you get what you get. personally, I think it's a good thing.

Talkiet

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#400793 5-Nov-2010 14:36

stuzzo:
Talkie:

Remember, fibre isn't new. YOU can buy it TODAY. Anyone with a killer app idea just waiting for fibre to make their millions shouldn't be waiting! (see note 1 below)!

There's the small issue of a few billion dollars to lay it though. Even your killer app needs economy of scale. It's not as easy as putting a satellite dish on someone's roof either.

It occurs to me that Telecom could almost have avoided a government funded roll out of FTTH if they had just done one thing...kept the punters happy...and that would primarily have been to have focused on the back-haul restrictions and brought down international bandwidth rates quicker.

Ultimately, when the public aren't happy, politicians have to act and you get what you get. personally, I think it's a good thing.

You're missing the point... Almost anyone in cities in NZ could get fibre today. Most central city areas have competitive fibre available. There's a lot of businesses already connected.

Any public company with shareholders is pretty much required to act in the best interests of the shareholders and it would seem that building fibre to most people in NZ simply isn't a profitable proposition at this stage. The fact the government is stepping in to kick a decent wad of cash and possible other benefits into the pot shows that this is recognised by the govt as well.

And yes, I believe the politicians have acted. Some of the justifications for this action are lost on me, and on others that understand the demand and cost structures.

Cheers- - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

Beccara

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#400838 5-Nov-2010 16:08

Talkiet:
stuzzo:
Talkie:

Remember, fibre isn't new. YOU can buy it TODAY. Anyone with a killer app idea just waiting for fibre to make their millions shouldn't be waiting! (see note 1 below)!

There's the small issue of a few billion dollars to lay it though. Even your killer app needs economy of scale. It's not as easy as putting a satellite dish on someone's roof either.

It occurs to me that Telecom could almost have avoided a government funded roll out of FTTH if they had just done one thing...kept the punters happy...and that would primarily have been to have focused on the back-haul restrictions and brought down international bandwidth rates quicker.

Ultimately, when the public aren't happy, politicians have to act and you get what you get. personally, I think it's a good thing.

You're missing the point... Almost anyone in cities in NZ could get fibre today. Most central city areas have competitive fibre available. There's a lot of businesses already connected.

Any public company with shareholders is pretty much required to act in the best interests of the shareholders and it would seem that building fibre to most people in NZ simply isn't a profitable proposition at this stage. The fact the government is stepping in to kick a decent wad of cash and possible other benefits into the pot shows that this is recognised by the govt as well.

And yes, I believe the politicians have acted. Some of the justifications for this action are lost on me, and on others that understand the demand and cost structures.

Cheers- - N

When I lived in Oriental Bay in Wellington I didn't have fibre, Some of my clients had fibre run across the street from them and would have cost $2-6k to have it run across the road, Only a handful of people I know in Wellington could get it and that was living in central city apartments. There is alot of fibre out there but not enough to say "Almost anyone in cities can get it", The minute that fibre doesn't ran on your side of the street your talking four figures to hook it up, Fibre might be around but its not competitive or wide spread

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