Before you post another message about fast broadband, read this...

Forums › New Zealand Broadband › Before you post another message about fast broadband, read this...

Talkiet

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#71080 4-Nov-2010 11:20

http://www.iscr.org.nz/f609,17429/17429_The_Tyrant_Lives_v2_Oct_31.pdf

It's a very good overview of the benefits that 100mbps will bring most people for web performance. Yes OF COURSE there are other uses for the Internet, but read this. If you get to the end and you understand it, well done.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

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#400083 4-Nov-2010 11:22

Even with 100mbit connections, you're not going to be able to do 100/100mbit to most place.s

Talkiet

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#400084 4-Nov-2010 11:24

kyhwana2: Even with 100mbit connections, you're not going to be able to do 100/100mbit to most place.s

Heh... read the article.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

kyhwana2

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#400101 4-Nov-2010 11:48

Talkiet:
kyhwana2: Even with 100mbit connections, you're not going to be able to do 100/100mbit to most place.s

Heh... read the article.

Cheers - N

Well, I wasn't talking about normal webpages, but noted :P

cyril7

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#400113 4-Nov-2010 12:05

Very interesting, I have always been aware of the issues surrounding HTTP with its requirement to pull data form multiple sources, so all the DNS requests to do that and then spool in all the segments in a bursty manner, so now to have some pretty pictures and numbers to get some reality about it is very interesting indeed.

Cyril

FreakyKiwi

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#400138 4-Nov-2010 12:50

Still doesnt and won't solve the delay issues we already have regarding ISP placement of DNS services to their customers...

kyhwana2

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#400166 4-Nov-2010 13:18

FreakyKiwi: Still doesnt and won't solve the delay issues we already have regarding ISP placement of DNS services to their customers...

Well, most will be in auckland/wellington, so they'll be close enough

michaeln

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#400181 4-Nov-2010 13:45

Talkiet: http://www.iscr.org.nz/f609,17429/17429_The_Tyrant_Lives_v2_Oct_31.pdf

It's a very good overview of the benefits that 100mbps will bring most people for web performance.

I disagree. It focuses on a particular group and explicitly excludes caching, which ameliorates the latency problem.

The paper considers the effects of bandwidth and latency on a particular group of concern to the authors---New Zealand business competing in an international arena---which I submit is not 'most people'.

There is also an implicit assumption that the future will be like the present, only more-so. I.e., quantitatively different rather than qualitatively different. Yet the TCP window problem is known and there are already solutions with others being worked on. Google for instance recently announced initiatives in this area.

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webnation

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#400211 4-Nov-2010 14:38

as the article states the most benefit of this is for visiting sites in NZ and AUS, the benefit for visiting USA, Asia site/servers is modest.

Whether benefit to you or not depend on where you consumer most of the content from, isn't it?

Talkiet

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#400217 4-Nov-2010 14:55

webnation: as the article states the most benefit of this is for visiting sites in NZ and AUS, the benefit for visiting USA, Asia site/servers is modest.

Whether benefit to you or not depend on where you consumer most of the content from, isn't it?

Absolutely, and I'm not guessing when I say that the vast majority of all traffic is currently internationally sourced. That might change over time, and the impact of caching and CDNs is already starting to move it slightly, but almost everything is still coming from overseas.

The point in posting this was to try and post some balance to the OMG100MBITforEVERYoneISsoGREATtheINTERNETwillBEsoFAST!!!!!1 brigade.

100mbit will add more benefit for local sites for sure, but it's still not going to give the improvement the bandwidth headline implies.

I can just imagine the look on some faces with the dawning realisation that providing a 100mbps access network won't improve the performance of "The Internet" for many people, given how they use it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against progress, and I would love 100Mbit to the door - but I get annoyed when it's portrayed as a panacea of high speed everything that's going to save the economy.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

NonprayingMantis

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#400219 4-Nov-2010 14:57

webnation: as the article states the most benefit of this is for visiting sites in NZ and AUS, the benefit for visiting USA, Asia site/servers is modest.

Whether benefit to you or not depend on where you consumer most of the content from, isn't it?

correct. It is basically attempting to rebut the government's claim that FTTH will make NZ vastly more competitive on a global scale by enabling NZ sites to better compete overseas with US based (or any other country based) sites.

Basically they are saying that since FTTH will not solve latency, and neither will it solve internaitonal capacity constraints, the ability of FTTH to improve competitiveness overseas is extremely limited.

that;s not to say, of course, that it won't vaslty improve the performance of NZ based sites in this country. It will. but that is not what the report is attempting to rebut.

To use an analagy, FTTH is like paving everybodies driveway with lovely crisp clean tarmac, but allowing all the motorways and state highways to stay covered in debris and full of potholes.

Beccara

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#400278 4-Nov-2010 17:05

Talkiet:
100mbit will add more benefit for local sites for sure, but it's still not going to give the improvement the bandwidth headline implies.

I can just imagine the look on some faces with the dawning realisation that providing a 100mbps access network won't improve the performance of "The Internet" for many people, given how they use it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against progress, and I would love 100Mbit to the door - but I get annoyed when it's portrayed as a panacea of high speed everything that's going to save the economy.

Cheers - N

Isn't the point that its not going to make what we do now better but more it's going to allow us to do things that we couldn't before at the pricepoint we need?

Business's doing HD Telecomferencing without the CAP blowout worries, Architect's sending gig sized CAD drawings around the country without the hour long upload wait, Home user's using Google Tv to stream whatever they want etc etc

You're average web browsing experience isn't going to improve, Most users I know cant tell the difference between a 3mbit pipe and a 10mbit pipe but what they do notice is that when they want to play a game demo on their PS3 that it's fast.

Will it help the economy? Most likely and in some odd ways (Telecommuting, Number of studies show it works and works well)

pieeta

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#400282 4-Nov-2010 17:21

Does anyone have any data on the latency difference between using VDSL/ADSL and FTTH.

They did their benchmarking for NZ at 60ms RTT.
which may be the case for when your using ADSL but shouldn't FTTH drop that way down?

muppet

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#400286 4-Nov-2010 17:42

@Talkiet Stop talking sense man. It's bad for business.

Talkiet

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#400287 4-Nov-2010 17:43

pieeta: Does anyone have any data on the latency difference between using VDSL/ADSL and FTTH.

They did their benchmarking for NZ at 60ms RTT.
which may be the case for when your using ADSL but shouldn't FTTH drop that way down?

Latency for the access component of the network isn't always a major contributor to overall latency. I know of people for example than can achieve under 10ms on their ADSL connections to a webserver - these people have interleaving off and are in the same physical town as the server, and have a couple of other things falling their way.

At the most basic level, not including switching delays, or anything else, NZ is about 12ms from end to end (and that's one way, so double it for RTT) - so that means that someone accessing a webserver in Akl will perhaps have a significantly better latency if they themselves are in Akl vs Invercargill for example.

I don't think there's a lot in ADSL2 vs VDSL, and I'm honestly not sure about FTTH... I imagine propogation delay is going to be the most significant contributor to delay in the NZ network.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

Beccara

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#400288 4-Nov-2010 17:48

pieeta: Does anyone have any data on the latency difference between using VDSL/ADSL and FTTH.

They did their benchmarking for NZ at 60ms RTT.
which may be the case for when your using ADSL but shouldn't FTTH drop that way down?

Reading the report there are a few things that stand out as "odd" 60-100ms to US google? I'm pretty sure transit between Auckland and LA is 100ms min, The broadband table speed's are also the theoretical max for the respective tech, FTTH is going to be much more stable and predictable in nature when compared with the xDsl's in terms of latency and throughput

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