Can Chorus install fibre to neighbor's house without my consent

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#2059721 20-Jul-2018 23:54

To be fair, I would probably be objecting to this as well.

Cross-leases can and do often have exclusively leased outdoor areas included in the titles to the flats. Subject to the rights in the cross-lease, those areas effectively "belong" to the flat owner.

What is being suggested here is not too different to two freehold neighbours with a shared driveway, where Chorus instead decide to bring the fibre across one of the neighbour's lawns.

I wouldn't accept Chorus putting a fibre line through my lawn to my neighbour's house, without my neighbour or Chorus first buying the right to do so (i.e. an easement) off me. The same would apply if my neighbour wanted to run sewer lines, drains, water supply or any other service.

While fibre running under the lawn may never be an issue, equally it could limit the future uses of the property, for example if the owner wants to develop that area in some way. Once it's in, it seems unlikely that Chorus would meet the cost of relocating the fibre, to suit the owner's development plans.

I agree that some of these situations where neighbours block neighbours from getting fibre are frustrating, but this doesn't appear to be that situation. There is an option to run the fibre in a shared area (which the neighbour has existing rights to), albeit the works will be more difficult. I expect there would still be an option to attach to a fence, if trenching the driveway was too disruptive.

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quickymart

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#2059739 21-Jul-2018 07:33

The connection point may not be in the location where you would like it to run from though.

Taubin

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#2059752 21-Jul-2018 07:47

froob:

I wouldn't accept Chorus putting a fibre line through my lawn to my neighbour's house, without my neighbour or Chorus first buying the right to do so (i.e. an easement) off me. The same would apply if my neighbour wanted to run sewer lines, drains, water supply or any other service.

I'm certainly glad I don't have you as a neighbour. I'm sure you'd throw a fit if you were in the back lot and your neighbour demanded you pay them for an easement. That's why most places have easements written into the cross-lease.

ZL2TOY/ZL1DMP

froob

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#2059776 21-Jul-2018 09:33

Taubin:
I'm certainly glad I don't have you as a neighbour. I'm sure you'd throw a fit if you were in the back lot and your neighbour demanded you pay them for an easement. That's why most places have easements written into the cross-lease.

Good on you, if you would be willing to accommodate your neighbours in that way. I’m sure many on here would applaud you for that, including me.

My view is however that the OP should feel free to exercise any right they have to object, if they are not comfortable with the situation.

Property rights were described in a seminar I went to a few years back as “the right to be unreasonable”. What was meant by this is that, with a few exceptions, there is no requirement for an owner to accomodate any else doing anything on their property, even if that would be the reasonable thing to do. Whether or not you or I agree that the OP is acting reasonably in objecting (and in this case, I think that they would be), if that is their right, they should feel free to exercise it.

In terms of easements in cross-leases, I don’t think that is quite right. While cross-leases are bespoke documents and can contain almost any terms, generally they follow a set of templates with quite similar provisions. Those provisions usually require consent of all owners (as landlords) before any new structure can be built on the property. Landlords can put forward proposals, and there is generally a dispute resolution mechanism to follow if the landlords don’t all agree. They don’t allow one owner to proceed with building new structures across another’s exclusive area, as an easement would.

The Unit Titles Act, which is the more “modern” scheme for the same types of property, does expressly have ancillary rights for services attaching to the units in the nature of easements (see s 73), but how that would operate in practice is another matter.

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sbiddle

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#2059791 21-Jul-2018 10:04

I do have one question for the OP - why would you not get UFB installed at the same time while it is still free (it's anybody's guess what will happen post 2020 when the commercial realities of fibre eventuate) and more importantly to save everything being dug up again in the future?

Wheelbarrow01

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Chorus

#2059880 21-Jul-2018 11:51

It's worth remembering that in an MDU situation, Chorus have a responsibility to make fibre available for all dwellings in the MDU at the same time as the first connection goes ahead - regardless of whether those occupants plan to connect in future or not. Therefore Chorus must place the network in such a way as to make it as easy as possible for subsequent connections in the MDU to be completed. In this case, I suspect that they have chosen the fibre cable location with your dwelling in mind.

Had they chosen to run the fibre cable up the other side of the driveway, not only would that mean they have to cut across the driveway to get to your back neighbour's house, they would also have to cut across it again in future when you or the next occupant of your house finally decides to order fibre.

Additionally, I imagine that most property owners would prefer to have the fibre cabling hidden under their lawn, rather than have a strip of their driveway dug up. Assuming the driveway is a sealed surface, any slot trench placed in it (and subsequent reinstatement) will always be visible. I know I'd prefer to have the cabling run through grass as it's the least intrusive option. I have been to several fibre installs (including my own) and I have seen the installers carefully dig up the grass layer and put it to one side. They then slot-trench and bury the cable, then place the grass layer back on top. You seriously can't even tell that they have been there - even later the same day.

The other reason Chorus are steering clear of the driveway could be because of underground power, water and gas in the driveway area.

Future development plans for the site can be a valid reason to object, but they have to be just that - plans, not aspirations.

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

dfnt

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#2059886 21-Jul-2018 12:04

Louis2099:

nas:

This situation sounds exactly why the law was changed, for the better in my opinion

We had a neighbour in a shared driveway that put their head in the sand, ignoring requests for consent. Thankfully with the law change their head in the sand resulted in implied consent and I finally got fibre.

Did they go through your neighbor's property to get you connected? I'd be surprised if they did.

No, not quite the same as your situation. It's a shared driveway situation, so they mictrenched up the side of the driveway (grass area), then cut into the driveway to get across to our entrance then across the face of our entrance to get into lawn again.

Microtrenching on the lawn is a much cleaner solution to cutting into the concrete imo. The job they did to cover the concrete wasn't the best, but we're renting so I didn't make a big deal out of it, whereas you can't even tell there's fibre running through the lawn now.

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Aredwood

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#2060064 21-Jul-2018 16:36

There is also a chance that the land that the driveway is on, is not even part of the title that covers the OP and their neighbors houses. And the right of access easement on the driveway might be limited to only vehicles and people. Especially as the property has its own street frontage.

If so, then Chorus won't be allowed to install fibre on that shared driveway.

Also cross lease terms typically also say that in addition to needing to get consent from all parties to the cross lease. That consent cannot be unreasonably withheld.

insane

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#2060074 21-Jul-2018 16:49

Just because the driveway is shared doesn't imply this is a cross-lease. The second properly could quite easily be freehold with a ROW over the first property - my in-laws have this setup.

Without photo's, it's hard to say, but from what I've read here I would be a little annoyed if the fibre was not sufficiently buried in the ground. Nothing worse than having to work/garden carefully around utilities.

Just because trenching through the lawn is the easiest path for the contractors, doesn't mean in the right thing to do.

Chorusnz

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#2061009 23-Jul-2018 14:06

As no two properties are the same bringing Fibre into New Zealand homes can be a difficult task. Especially when it comes to shared access (ROW) or multi dwelling (MDU) properties where a unique solution is required for every build.

In a ROW build the path of Fibre will be along shared assets/areas or existing easements from the street to a dropoff at the edge of each property. The connection work required within each private section of property is done upon request of Fibre. You can find out more about the work required for a ROW build here: http://bit.ly/ChorusROW.

Before any work is undertaken, consent is required from every affected landowner. Prior to the land access reform, written consents was required from every property. As has been pointed out, this posed quite a nightmare for a lot of properties where miss understanding or simply lack of response resulted in a high number of failed consents.

The new laws allow us to provide a notification period for jobs where the impact is minimal. You can read about Consents and the different categories here: http://bit.ly/ChorusConsents. If you are unhappy with the design, we have a consents team on hand to field questions and reasonable objections.

@Louis2099 We’re continuing to work on this with you through our other social channels and provide more information as it becomes available.

^Richard

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#2061010 23-Jul-2018 14:08

This thread is the exact reason I'll never share land with another by choice.

Coil

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#2061023 23-Jul-2018 14:27

Storm in a teacup of the week award goes to this thread.

Seriously, I am sure we can all appreciate the fact you may have some 30CM by 10CM patches of dirt in your lawn for a week and chorus techs running around for a day and the horrors that may bring to your life. The bigger picture needs to be looked at, Sure you may run into a few fibres if you were to put a pool into your front garden or what not but other than that the impact is minimal. Then again people can be precious and be startled at the smallest of changes; like my old neighbor who was a lovely 90 year old lady who didn't want the rotten half broken boundary fence to be replaced. She didn't really have a reason but it had just always been like that. We convinced her it will be better and at the end of it she was stoked with the new straight fence. Be like our fence lady, open to change and be happy with the fruits it brings. In your case crappy copper to fast fibre..

Apart from some over justified principal behind declining this fibre install all you are doing is disadvantaging yourself and your neighbor. I hope what ever maybe nagging your to be a stick in the mud quits soon.

dryburn

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#2061024 23-Jul-2018 14:29

Wheelbarrow01:

It's worth remembering that in an MDU situation, Chorus have a responsibility to make fibre available for all dwellings in the MDU at the same time as the first connection goes ahead - regardless of whether those occupants plan to connect in future or not. Therefore Chorus must place the network in such a way as to make it as easy as possible for subsequent connections in the MDU to be completed. In this case, I suspect that they have chosen the fibre cable location with your dwelling in mind.

Had they chosen to run the fibre cable up the other side of the driveway, not only would that mean they have to cut across the driveway to get to your back neighbour's house, they would also have to cut across it again in future when you or the next occupant of your house finally decides to order fibre.

Additionally, I imagine that most property owners would prefer to have the fibre cabling hidden under their lawn, rather than have a strip of their driveway dug up. Assuming the driveway is a sealed surface, any slot trench placed in it (and subsequent reinstatement) will always be visible. I know I'd prefer to have the cabling run through grass as it's the least intrusive option. I have been to several fibre installs (including my own) and I have seen the installers carefully dig up the grass layer and put it to one side. They then slot-trench and bury the cable, then place the grass layer back on top. You seriously can't even tell that they have been there - even later the same day.

The other reason Chorus are steering clear of the driveway could be because of underground power, water and gas in the driveway area.

Future development plans for the site can be a valid reason to object, but they have to be just that - plans, not aspirations.

Any Idea on the max distance between units to be considered MDU dwelling?

Currently trying to get fibre and getting a quote for install but would ideally like it free since there are at least 10 connections required.

Pumpedd

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#2061036 23-Jul-2018 14:54

The issue could have been avoided with better communication all round. Firstly the neighbor should have communicated, and then Chorus should have communicated better and perhaps offered some alternatives.

Wheelbarrow01

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#2061087 23-Jul-2018 15:48

dryburn:

Wheelbarrow01:

It's worth remembering that in an MDU situation, Chorus have a responsibility to make fibre available for all dwellings in the MDU at the same time as the first connection goes ahead - regardless of whether those occupants plan to connect in future or not. Therefore Chorus must place the network in such a way as to make it as easy as possible for subsequent connections in the MDU to be completed. In this case, I suspect that they have chosen the fibre cable location with your dwelling in mind.

Had they chosen to run the fibre cable up the other side of the driveway, not only would that mean they have to cut across the driveway to get to your back neighbour's house, they would also have to cut across it again in future when you or the next occupant of your house finally decides to order fibre.

Additionally, I imagine that most property owners would prefer to have the fibre cabling hidden under their lawn, rather than have a strip of their driveway dug up. Assuming the driveway is a sealed surface, any slot trench placed in it (and subsequent reinstatement) will always be visible. I know I'd prefer to have the cabling run through grass as it's the least intrusive option. I have been to several fibre installs (including my own) and I have seen the installers carefully dig up the grass layer and put it to one side. They then slot-trench and bury the cable, then place the grass layer back on top. You seriously can't even tell that they have been there - even later the same day.

The other reason Chorus are steering clear of the driveway could be because of underground power, water and gas in the driveway area.

Future development plans for the site can be a valid reason to object, but they have to be just that - plans, not aspirations.

Any Idea on the max distance between units to be considered MDU dwelling?

Currently trying to get fibre and getting a quote for install but would ideally like it free since there are at least 10 connections required.

I'm not sure what you mean - an MDU by definition is a single building with multiple dwellings in that one building - so there is usually no distance between units (ie shared walls). A Right Of Way scenario could have several dwellings all spread out on a single plot of land - either under a cross lease or unit title (or even fee simple if all the dwellings/units are owned by one entity).

I am unaware of any maximum distance between dwellings or units in a Right Of Way scenario on an underlying plot of land, but there is a maximum distance from the network on the road before the installation is considered to be non-standard, which is possibly why a quote is required in your scenario?

In Chorus' case, I believe the maximum distance from the network on the street for a standard installation is 200 metres which is pretty generous. Some other LFCs consider that anything over 15 metres from the road is a non-standard property.

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

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