Copper withdrawal confusing for some

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#2991240 2-Nov-2022 22:11

Zeusssy:
Often times in resthomes, on build an agreement is struck with an LFC to install to all to simplify things, instead of doing many many installs to individual apartments later on.
So often it is found to be fiber available, or already installed, but the records and address automation fail since they are not updated to show it was part of the build.
Even worse is when say Chorus install to a full resthome in another LFCs area (Say Chch-Enable) and when you advise fibre through chorus is available, it confuses all parties.

Its unfortunately a problem that does get struck sometimes.

From experience when UFB rolled out a lot of rest homes decided to not bother with the hassle of fibre to units. At the time it was actively being pushed if the cable was going in to the village they should allow for all the units and many of them said don't bother and just install one central connection and we'll distribute from there. Most of them came back within 12 months to request the units got connected but it was an awful experience for the tenants chasing providers to chase the lfc and be told no.

A big issue you'll find however is addressing is just garbage and it completely relies on that being right to be able to find your unit. It still amazes me how many people in this world don't know their own address. Confusion between being 1A and 1/1 I can understand, but some people don't even know what mailbox their post is in or what floor they live on when asked. A significant number of developers would deviate from council sanctioned numbering for no good reason and again its the people that move in that have to get that fixed and suffer through working out how to place any orders. It only takes one person to get it wrong and the ont is against the wrong unit and the entire thing starts to unravel.

toejam316

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#2991242 2-Nov-2022 22:21

yitz:

They did do the work to deliver truly naked connections though, that is/was Bigpipe.. now Skinny...

Bigpipe had separate infrastructure, essentially a different ISP. What's left of Bigpipe is now just a Spark reseller, and Skinny is the one that gets the real attention. I'm honestly surprised Bigpipe is still a thing.

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nztim

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#2991251 2-Nov-2022 23:06

toejam316:

my understanding is that Spark's IT systems are tied into the NEAX. This is why even on naked broadband NU tone is sent down the line, as there isn't an option to sell service without being attached to the NEAX in the system.

My understanding its ICMS Billing of copper broadband still needs a NEAX phone number for the bill

toejam316:

I can't imagine there are many places like Pauatahanui that would be impacted by that limitation, but there's always going to be some casualties I suppose.

Makara, Peka Peka, Te Horo, South Wainuiomata - Four areas I can name off the top of my head with 100+mbps VDSL, No Fibre, and Forced FWA migrations (or move to another ISP)

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toejam316

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#2991253 2-Nov-2022 23:15

nztim:

My understanding its ICMS Billing of copper broadband still needs a NEAX phone number for the bill

Makara, Peka Peka, Te Horo, South Wainuiomata - Four areas I can name off the top of my head with 100+mbps VDSL, No Fibre, and Forced FWA migrations (or move to another ISP)

ICMS being to blame sounds about right - I'm nowhere near that side of things, but I'd readily blame A LOT on ICMS still being a thing.

As for those other areas, I can't say I know them offhand, so I can't imagine they had any NEAX hardware hosted in them - I would've thought that the only places that would be impacted like this would have been places directly hosted on a 61E, which would have been fairly fringe places covered by direct copper from the exchange but not cabinetised. Again, my understanding of the situation is fairly limited, all my knowledge is based off of experience as a Chorus Copper tech, and working on the NEAXs directly, and not from anywhere those decisions would be made.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

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#2991377 3-Nov-2022 09:01

nztim:

Makara, Peka Peka, Te Horo, South Wainuiomata - Four areas I can name off the top of my head with 100+mbps VDSL, No Fibre, and Forced FWA migrations (or move to another ISP)

Tech savvy users might prefer fast VDSL over FWA, but would the average user really notice a significant difference?

I have a friend who is hopeless with technology. A few months ago she had fibre installed but the ISP supplied router was a bit iffy and the ONT eventually failed. She consequently cancelled the fibre connection and replaced it with FWA because she developed a perception that fibre is 'unreliable' and has 'too many wires'.

The above might seem crazy to you, but technologically naive customers don't care what technology is better. They only care about their perceived outcomes.

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#2991381 3-Nov-2022 09:08

alasta:

nztim:

Makara, Peka Peka, Te Horo, South Wainuiomata - Four areas I can name off the top of my head with 100+mbps VDSL, No Fibre, and Forced FWA migrations (or move to another ISP)

Tech savvy users might prefer fast VDSL over FWA, but would the average user really notice a significant difference?

True, but you should have choice, I still believe the forced copper withdrawals by RSPs should only be limited to those areas with fibre, chorus themselves are compelled to keep copper in areas where there is no fibre.

Some of those customers have also had to accept data caps to stay with Spark and move to FWA

Also, with 4k streaming now a thing, this is much more stable over a better wired connection that FWA

In saying that though, you can, and (and people have) just simply changed RSP, but it does make it a lot harder if you have things like xtra.co.nz email addresses

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nztim

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#2991382 3-Nov-2022 09:11

toejam316:

Bigpipe had separate infrastructure, essentially a different ISP. What's left of Bigpipe is now just a Spark reseller, and Skinny is the one that gets the real attention. I'm honestly surprised Bigpipe is still a thing.

Bigpipe customers should just be rolled into Skinny

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yitz

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#2991451 3-Nov-2022 10:09

nztim: Bigpipe customers should just be rolled into Skinny

Why? They aren't forcing customers off $69 or $79 ADSL or VDSL onto FWA... as I understand the provisioning system for Bigpipe since 2013 is the one being used for Skinny fixed DSL and doesn't depend on NEAX as its true naked broadband without dial tone and is not reliant on old Telecom back office systems like ICMS. So Spark do have the means to keep copper broadband without NEAX they would just rather switch to FWA. Plus since 2018 Bigpipe has been the same connection as Spark (i.e. same BNGs) but with advantages like one-off charge for static IP... too bad you can't keep the Xtra e-mail address...

richms

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#2991456 3-Nov-2022 10:22

nztim:

True, but you should have choice, I still believe the forced copper withdrawals by RSPs should only be limited to those areas with fibre, chorus themselves are compelled to keep copper in areas where there is no fibre.

I believe that RSPs should be free to use any technology they want to and not be expected to maintain inferior high maintenance services because some of their customers are reluctant to change off them.

If a provider announced tomorrow that they would be closing all copper connections at the end of the year and to move over to wireless, fiber or another provider, that is fine. The only company forced to provide anything is chorus.

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yitz

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#2991457 3-Nov-2022 10:35

The question of maintenance reminds me back in the times of 2006 when Telecom fought to stave off naked UBA and unbundling there was the argument that in dry loops (as would be without NEAX) the copper would degrade faster? I wonder Is there any truth to that?

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#2991738 4-Nov-2022 09:38

yitz:

as I understand the provisioning system for Bigpipe since 2013 is the one being used for Skinny fixed DSL and doesn't depend on NEAX as its true naked broadband without dial tone and is not reliant on old Telecom back office systems like ICMS. So Spark do have the means to keep copper broadband without NEAX they would just rather switch to FWA.

Of course, they don't have to pay chorus its more profitable

yitz:

The question of maintenance reminds me back in the times of 2006 when Telecom fought to stave off naked UBA and unbundling there was the argument that in dry loops (as would be without NEAX) the copper would degrade faster? I wonder Is there any truth to that?

Sounds like rubbish to me, back it the day lots of people had phone lines just to have a broadband connection and never actually had a phone plugged in, electrical signals from the NEAX wouldn't even be sent down the line unless the there was ringing, or the phone went off hook. There was an internal leaked memo from Theresa Gattung (then CEO) that Telecom would X million of dollars if unbundling occurred.

Oh, and then there was the problem of back in 2006 Telecom has no way of billing MDF pairs because ICMS billing was anchored around phone number, attached to a port on a line card on the NEAX

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Technofreak

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#2992199 5-Nov-2022 13:16

nztim:

Sounds like rubbish to me, back it the day lots of people had phone lines just to have a broadband connection and never actually had a phone plugged in, electrical signals from the NEAX wouldn't even be sent down the line unless the there was ringing, or the phone went off hook. There was an internal leaked memo from Theresa Gattung (then CEO) that Telecom would X million of dollars if unbundling occurred.

Oh, and then there was the problem of back in 2006 Telecom has no way of billing MDF pairs because ICMS billing was anchored around phone number, attached to a port on a line card on the NEAX

There is/was always 50 volts sitting on the cable pair from the line relay or equivalent in the NEAX in order to detect an off hook condition with the on premise equipment. There was always an electrical "signal" present.

So tell me how did they bill for fire alarm circuits and similar which had no number associated with the cable pair

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#2992418 6-Nov-2022 11:31

richms:

I believe that RSPs should be free to use any technology they want to and not be expected to maintain inferior high maintenance services because some of their customers are reluctant to change off them.

Whereas I believe RSP's should have a regulatory requirement to do what's best for their customers, not their margins.

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#2992596 6-Nov-2022 17:26

Spark absolutely could offer naked copper broadband in a NEAX free world. The question is, are they prepared to update their provisioning and billing systems to support it?

Their current implementation is tied in with the NEAX instructure - its basically a clothed DSL circuit with inbound/outbound call bar installed.

I think the answer is that they'd rather not invest the potential millions to migrate copper to their newer software stacks...

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#2992635 6-Nov-2022 20:50

cokemaster:

I think the answer is that they'd rather not invest the potential millions to migrate copper to their newer software stacks...

Best to just switch it off as soon as possible rather than waste money on changing things and testing them all for it to be for nothing after a few years.

Richard rich.ms

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