cost to roll out fibre vs. the benefits it will bring in the future ???

Forums › New Zealand Broadband › cost to roll out fibre vs. the benefits it will bring in the future ???

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#312535 29-Mar-2010 18:35

hmm, can't edit my post above. Of course you get to choose what kind of bandwidth you need on any of your Vlans delivered over HSNS.

PenultimateHop

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#312536 29-Mar-2010 18:37

sbiddle: I'm not sure if they're significantly different price wise but EUBA is a whole new kettle of fish and is the first wholesale service carried over ethernet. As Maverick pointed out, the CIR rates of the existing ATM network is one of the key bottlenecks at present and this is about to go.

Didn't Telecom make a big fuss a couple years back about their ISAMs and using Ethernet in place of the ATM network for aggregation of DSLAMs? Sounds like the ATM stuff is a bit of a red herring...

sbiddle: For those who don't know what EUBA is it offers dual VLANs ofer xDSL (only ADSL at present) with a dedicated CIR for VoIP. This means that a CIR of up to 180kbps of dedicated bandwidth (enough for a VoIP call using alaw/ulaw) has it's own dedicated VLAN to ensure QoS.

EUBA only offers a single VLAN to the subscriber. It just supports multiple 802.1P values which allow the CPE and the service provider to mark traffic of interest to different priority values.

antoniosk: I don't recall seeing dual vlan support in the Service Provider Guide. From what I could see it's a single pipe for all traffic (voip, internet, management) with a packet sniffer to ensure traffic marked rtp is not dropped until a certain threshold is reached. Pretty draconian implementation as well.

Places a high onus on edge CPE to do the right thing. Good thing I've got some :-)

No packet sniffing, just different 802.1P values being mapped to different ingress and egress queues. Any decent CPE should be able to handle this as it is not a new deployment model for networks.

webwat: Didn't sound like much fun when they first proposed it, with only 64k including all the ATM and L2TP overhead. If EUBA has all been nailed down by now then I wonder if they sorted out the options of how to manage excess realtime traffic, such as dropping packets or redirecting to the best efforts VLAN. Didnt know POTS-only customers hadn't been cabinetised at all, but they caused lots of problems with doing that for some ADSL customers (like 64kbps with pretty unstable noise margins).

EUBA has no L2TP overhead as it is an end-to-end Ethernet (RFC2684) delivered service. As mentioned in the manuals linked above (and in the extensive Commerce Commission documentation) once you exceed your RT bandwidth guarantee, packets will be discarded by the network.

Kyanar

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#312689 29-Mar-2010 23:55

Can someone explain to me exactly what it is that Vector wants money for, anyway? According to their coverage maps they already have fibre running past virtually every premises in Auckland.

NonprayingMantis

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#312698 30-Mar-2010 01:02

Kyanar: Can someone explain to me exactly what it is that Vector wants money for, anyway? According to their coverage maps they already have fibre running past virtually every premises in Auckland.

auckland is not the whole country.

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#312714 30-Mar-2010 07:50

Kyanar: Can someone explain to me exactly what it is that Vector wants money for, anyway? According to their coverage maps they already have fibre running past virtually every premises in Auckland.

Fibre passing a street vs fibre being readily connectable to a household are two totally different things. They want the money to deploy fibre to evvery household, that's quite different to what they can do right now.

dimsim

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#312939 30-Mar-2010 18:36

FibreFan: Currently, the govt. are proposing $1.5b to subsidise the fibre roll out initiative (which will most likely be matched by a company in the private sector). There has been a lot of discussion on how this is no way near enough, I agree, but more so that the cost will prevent NZer's from having access to fttd.

With current speculation about fttd, I see it as a realistic future for NZ. so the debate lies whether we do it now... or in ten years (when it is possible well over due and NZ is caught, again, catching up with the rest of the world).

IMO, with the knowledge and understanding we have now, I don't see the point in leaving it for another x amount of years. We have around 40 companies who are interested and wish to participate in the govts. initiative (NZCFH) along with Vectors strong campaign (the straw ads) which gaining a lot of awareness for the general public.
I feel now is the time - the internet will ONLY become more and more important and influential in our lives so why not have the best!

#fttd

sorry, missed your post whilst i was reminiscing here http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=49&topicid=59234

yup, fttd all the way, strike while the iron is hot.

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#313018 30-Mar-2010 19:40

dimsim:
FibreFan: Currently, the govt. are proposing $1.5b to subsidise the fibre roll out initiative (which will most likely be matched by a company in the private sector). There has been a lot of discussion on how this is no way near enough, I agree, but more so that the cost will prevent NZer's from having access to fttd.

With current speculation about fttd, I see it as a realistic future for NZ. so the debate lies whether we do it now... or in ten years (when it is possible well over due and NZ is caught, again, catching up with the rest of the world).

IMO, with the knowledge and understanding we have now, I don't see the point in leaving it for another x amount of years. We have around 40 companies who are interested and wish to participate in the govts. initiative (NZCFH) along with Vectors strong campaign (the straw ads) which gaining a lot of awareness for the general public.
I feel now is the time - the internet will ONLY become more and more important and influential in our lives so why not have the best!

#fttd

sorry, missed your post whilst i was reminiscing here http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=49&topicid=59234

yup, fttd all the way, strike while the iron is hot.

Our of curiosity, exactly how will a 50Mbps fibre or 50Mbps VDSL connection benefit you directly compared to the 15-18Mbps that many people are now typically getting on ADSL2+? Factoring in a situation where data will still cost the same - what will you being differently do what you do now?

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Kyanar

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#313049 30-Mar-2010 20:03

NonprayingMantis:
Kyanar: Can someone explain to me exactly what it is that Vector wants money for, anyway? According to their coverage maps they already have fibre running past virtually every premises in Auckland.

auckland is not the whole country.

Correct, but Vector isn't interested in the whole country. They're only interested in Auckland:

http://www.fibretothedoor.co.nz/faq:
Vector’s campaign only covers the Auckland region as this is where the majority of our networks are

Screeb

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#313081 30-Mar-2010 20:35

sbiddle:
Our of curiosity, exactly how will a 50Mbps fibre or 50Mbps VDSL connection benefit you directly compared to the 15-18Mbps that many people are now typically getting on ADSL2+? Factoring in a situation where data will still cost the same - what will you being differently do what you do now?

You're doing it again. 10 years is a long time. Are you honestly suggesting that speeds should happily remain the same for 10 years? Sorry, but this is a VERY ignorant position to take. We didn't have meaningful P2P 10 years ago. We didn't have widespread web video until YouTube came along only 5 years ago. Cloud-based storage and applications were just a pipe dream 10 years ago.

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#313095 30-Mar-2010 20:57

Screeb:
sbiddle:
Our of curiosity, exactly how will a 50Mbps fibre or 50Mbps VDSL connection benefit you directly compared to the 15-18Mbps that many people are now typically getting on ADSL2+? Factoring in a situation where data will still cost the same - what will you being differently do what you do now?

You're doing it again. 10 years is a long time. Are you honestly suggesting that speeds should happily remain the same for 10 years? Sorry, but this is a VERY ignorant position to take. We didn't have meaningful P2P 10 years ago. We didn't have widespread web video until YouTube came along only 5 years ago. Cloud-based storage and applications were just a pipe dream 10 years ago.

I'm not asking how we will benefit from those speeds in 10 years time. I'm asking how it will change people if they had 50Mbps now.

VDSL is delivering people 30-50Mbps now and by the end of the year a lot of people in NZ will have access to VDSL. By the end of 2011 a significant % of the population will have access to VDSL and 30-50Mbps speeds.

Screeb

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#313112 30-Mar-2010 21:10

sbiddle:
I'm not asking how we will benefit from those speeds in 10 years time. I'm asking how it will change people if they had 50Mbps now.

Why?

VDSL is delivering people 30-50Mbps now and by the end of the year a lot of people in NZ will have access to VDSL. By the end of 2011 a significant % of the population will have access to VDSL and 30-50Mbps speeds.

Who has residential VDSL right now? I've never seen anyone get >20Mbps on a residential xDSL plan in NZ. Also, increased speed without increased data caps is largely pointless - the data caps are low enough as they are.

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#313117 30-Mar-2010 21:15

Screeb:
Who has residential VDSL right now?

TelstraClear?

sbiddle

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#313121 30-Mar-2010 21:19

Screeb:
sbiddle:
I'm not asking how we will benefit from those speeds in 10 years time. I'm asking how it will change people if they had 50Mbps now.

Why?

Because lots and lots and lots of people are complaing their broadband is too slow. Infact we're being told by Vector our broadband is slow. The reality is things are changing very quickly. How are people who were getting 2-3Mbps finding things now that they're getting 15-18Mbps after cabinetisation? I'm curious as to how it's changing people's habits.

There are plenty of people out there who have poor broadband primarily because of wiring issues in premises. That is a fundamental problem that exists with copper.

Screeb

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#313167 30-Mar-2010 21:48

sbiddle:
Screeb:
Who has residential VDSL right now?

TelstraClear?

Residential? I can only find business VDSL plans on their site. There's a passing mention of VDSL as an "addon" to residential plans, but no other details. "Addon" implies extra cost. And going by their business plan pricing, that extra cost isn't going to be cheap.

Like I said, I haven't seen anyone with >20Mbps. Surely if residential VDSL does exist, someone has it and can post speed test results. It's obviously in very limited areas anyway.

sbiddle:
Because lots and lots and lots of people are complaing their broadband is too slow. Infact we're being told by Vector our broadband is slow. The reality is things are changing very quickly. How are people who were getting 2-3Mbps finding things now that they're getting 15-18Mbps after cabinetisation? I'm curious as to how it's changing people's habits.

There are plenty of people out there who have poor broadband primarily because of wiring issues in premises. That is a fundamental problem that exists with copper.

Really? I don't recall seeing "lots and lots" of people who actually get 15-18Mbps calling their broadband slow.

webwat

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#313260 30-Mar-2010 23:37

sbiddle:
Kyanar: Can someone explain to me exactly what it is that Vector wants money for, anyway? According to their coverage maps they already have fibre running past virtually every premises in Auckland.

Fibre passing a street vs fibre being readily connectable to a household are two totally different things. They want the money to deploy fibre to evvery household, that's quite different to what they can do right now.

At the moment Vector and all the other fibre owners provide low-contention 100%CIR business networks, and generally charge extra for anything that could prioritise realtime traffic. The dont have equipment designed for the scale and contention required to drive the cost-per-subscriber down to levels that any residential subscribers at all would be prepared to pay, even for the slow speeds. A residential network would involve dedicated access nodes and aggregation switches that designed for it, and maybe to upgrade handover points with more capacity. There would also need to be a look at what services and protocols to use since they still need to deliver a happy end user experience over any network conditions, and probably find some useful ONTs that can still provide phone service etc.

Time to find a new industry!

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