RBI launch prices

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#585975 23-Feb-2012 21:27

grant_k: I just noticed one more "sting in the tail" with the phone service:

Voicemail $7.16 per month.
Anyone trying to reach you can leave a message without you needing a conventional answer phone.

This is included with WxC's offering at no extra charge. IMO, there's not much point having a fixed-line phone these days without voice mail, even if for no better reason than to give callers your mobile number in case you're out and about.

Who the heck uses voicemail anymore?
Especially in the age of email/SMS/IMs/etc..

codyc1515

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#585976 23-Feb-2012 21:28

grant_k:
createcoms: http://www.farmside.co.nz/rbi-fixed-wireless-pricing-

Same product, different ISP.

Yet again, Farmside live up to their reputation of being more expensive than everybody else. Vodafone's pricing for 5GB is $80 incl. GST, Farmside charge $89 + GST = $102.35 !!!

Farmside do offer an extra 5GB offpeak data for use during midnight to 6am, but how much use do you think most farmers will get from that?

Agreed, their install pricing at $199 is much better, but the increased ongoing charges will eat up that saving over time. 512kbps upload speed also does not look good.

From what I read (& remember) in the wholesaling document for Vodafone under the RBI basically they are able to offer 10GB peak and 50GB off peak for around $40 max.

grant_k

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#585977 23-Feb-2012 21:35

kyhwana2:Who the heck uses voicemail anymore?
Especially in the age of email/SMS/IMs/etc..

Lots of people actually!

As I said above: "...even if for no better reason than to give callers your mobile number in case you're out and about".

If you don't record a suitable outgoing message on your answer phone, how can callers get your mobile number, given that these usually aren't listed in the phone book?

kyhwana2

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#585980 23-Feb-2012 21:43

grant_k:
kyhwana2:Who the heck uses voicemail anymore?
Especially in the age of email/SMS/IMs/etc..

Lots of people actually!

As I said above: "...even if for no better reason than to give callers your mobile number in case you're out and about".

If you don't record a suitable outgoing message on your answer phone, how can callers get your mobile number, given that these usually aren't listed in the phone book?

What's this landline business you're talking about? :P
(How do people have your land line number but not your cellphone number?)
Also, if they're ringing your number and get "voicemail" then they don't need your number, since they already have it!

grant_k

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#585983 23-Feb-2012 21:52

kyhwana2: (How do people have your land line number but not your cellphone number?)

Looks like I had better explain it step by step:

- People can usually find your landline number in the White Pages

- However, most people don't list their cellphone number as it costs extra...

kyhwana2: (Also, if they're ringing your number and get "voicemail" then they don't need your number, since they already have it!

They already have your landline number, but not your cellphone number for the reason I explained above.

Clear as mud now?

gwh

73 posts

Master Geek

#585984 23-Feb-2012 21:53

grant_k: Speaking as someone who has been using "RBI style" wireless broadband since Jan 2004 (remember project PROBE), I don't consider the ongoing monthly pricing of RBI as too bad. Currently I'm paying $95 for 10GB with 1Mbps download and 340kbps upload speeds.

The RBI service from our nearest Vodafone tower should at least double or triple my download speed, and probably increase my upload speed even more.

I am not impressed with two things:

1) The Installation Cost. $848 for a Yagi antenna, a 3G wireless VoIP router and a technician's visit is simply gouging. My Cisco SRP521W supports a 3G modem, and it does VoIP as well as N-WiFi. Cost about $300, and the Yagi antennae were less than $100 last time I checked. A one or two hour install and up to 2 hours of travel time don't come anywhere near $448.

2) The Calling Charges for the VoIP phone service. They are as follows:

National calls are $0.26 per minute and capped at $2.50 per call (up to 2 hours - after which you will be charged at standard calling rates). Calls to New Zealand mobiles are $0.36 per minute.

Compare those with WxC's VFX service @ 5c per minute to landlines, or 28c per minute to mobiles. Unless a subscriber makes very few phone calls, they would be better off to pay WxC's $11.25 monthly charge, and not use the Vodafone bundled phone service at all.

Hi all,

A couple of points to clarify,

1. a $448 installation charge means that Vodafone must be subsidising each connection to an extent. The modem/router is about $200, LMR195 or LMR240 cable plus connectors is about $40.00, the Yagi aerial is about $80, plus the cost of sealing tape, clips etc etc plus the installers time easily adds up to $500 plus.
Two things to bear in mind, first is that the customer connections are NOT subsidised by the government or Vodafone themselves. The government helped out with the cellsites, not connecting people to them. second, Satellite connections are heavily subsidised by the wholesaler or the supplier who are two separate entities in NZ. Your average Farmside or RuralInzone connection actually costs closer to $2K to buy the kit and get it installed on your roof. You pay less than $199 on occasions.

2. $848 is on the high side, but Rivernet instituted a "standard installation" definition in our contracts ages ago to protect ourselves just like Vodafone are clumsily doing now. Under our "standard installation" definition for our RBI service, if job doesn't fit the criteria the customer is given the option of a time and materials installation or to pull out altogether. An example of a non-standard installation is if we have to use LMR400 coax because of cable length. 15M of LMR400 plus connectors costs us around $100 which takes a lot of recovery from the monthly connection rental.
$848 is probably too expensive and the only time we've ever billed someone a installation charge like that for any of our internet services was when they had other work carried out at the same time.

Glenn Hutton
Rivernet Ltd
Balclutha

kyhwana2

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#585985 23-Feb-2012 21:56

grant_k:
- People can usually find your landline number in the White Pages
Clear as mud now?

What's a landline again? That's like that voip thingy, right? ;)

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grant_k

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#585986 23-Feb-2012 22:01

gwh:
A couple of points to clarify,

1. a $448 installation charge means that Vodafone must be subsidising each connection to an extent. The modem/router is about $200, LMR195 or LMR240 cable plus connectors is about $40.00, the Yagi aerial is about $80, plus the cost of sealing tape, clips etc etc plus the installers time easily adds up to $500 plus.
Two things to bear in mind, first is that the customer connections are NOT subsidised by the government or Vodafone themselves. The government helped out with the cellsites, not connecting people to them. second, Satellite connections are heavily subsidised by the wholesaler or the supplier who are two separate entities in NZ. Your average Farmside or RuralInzone connection actually costs closer to $2K to buy the kit and get it installed on your roof. You pay less than $199 on occasions.

2. $848 is on the high side, but Rivernet instituted a "standard installation" definition in our contracts ages ago to protect ourselves just like Vodafone are clumsily doing now. Under our "standard installation" definition for our RBI service, if job doesn't fit the criteria the customer is given the option of a time and materials installation or to pull out altogether. An example of a non-standard installation is if we have to use LMR400 coax because of cable length. 15M of LMR400 plus connectors costs us around $100 which takes a lot of recovery from the monthly connection rental.
$848 is probably too expensive and the only time we've ever billed someone a installation charge like that for any of our internet services was when they had other work carried out at the same time.

Glenn Hutton
Rivernet Ltd
Balclutha

Excellent clarification, thanks Glenn.

Now, if we just had the answer to this question, everything would be crystal clear:

codyc1515: On the second point I would say the call pricing is roughly comparable to that of a landline. Keep in mind, to my knowledge, the phone is not VoIP but rather GSM/UMTS.

Given that Vodafone provide both GSM and UMTS from the same cell site as the RBI connection, and all those services are on the 900MHz band, it seems logical.

However, the installer I talked to referred to the phone connection jack as an ATA, and said that it used VoIP for implementation, albeit the details are known only to Vodafone. It would be interesting to confirm which viewpoint is the correct one.

gwh

73 posts

Master Geek

#585994 23-Feb-2012 22:33

grant_k:
gwh:
A couple of points to clarify,

1. a $448 installation charge means that Vodafone must be subsidising each connection to an extent. The modem/router is about $200, LMR195 or LMR240 cable plus connectors is about $40.00, the Yagi aerial is about $80, plus the cost of sealing tape, clips etc etc plus the installers time easily adds up to $500 plus.
Two things to bear in mind, first is that the customer connections are NOT subsidised by the government or Vodafone themselves. The government helped out with the cellsites, not connecting people to them. second, Satellite connections are heavily subsidised by the wholesaler or the supplier who are two separate entities in NZ. Your average Farmside or RuralInzone connection actually costs closer to $2K to buy the kit and get it installed on your roof. You pay less than $199 on occasions.

2. $848 is on the high side, but Rivernet instituted a "standard installation" definition in our contracts ages ago to protect ourselves just like Vodafone are clumsily doing now. Under our "standard installation" definition for our RBI service, if job doesn't fit the criteria the customer is given the option of a time and materials installation or to pull out altogether. An example of a non-standard installation is if we have to use LMR400 coax because of cable length. 15M of LMR400 plus connectors costs us around $100 which takes a lot of recovery from the monthly connection rental.
$848 is probably too expensive and the only time we've ever billed someone a installation charge like that for any of our internet services was when they had other work carried out at the same time.

Glenn Hutton
Rivernet Ltd
Balclutha

Excellent clarification, thanks Glenn.

Now, if we just had the answer to this question, everything would be crystal clear:

codyc1515: On the second point I would say the call pricing is roughly comparable to that of a landline. Keep in mind, to my knowledge, the phone is not VoIP but rather GSM/UMTS.

Given that Vodafone provide both GSM and UMTS from the same cell site as the RBI connection, and all those services are on the 900MHz band, it seems logical.

However, the installer I talked to referred to the phone connection jack as an ATA, and said that it used VoIP for implementation, albeit the details are known only to Vodafone. It would be interesting to confirm which viewpoint is the correct one.

An interesting question Grant. As codyc1515 says, it could well be a GSM/UMTS device.
We are locked out of using the telephone part of the device until such time as we satisfy Vodafone's requirements for using it. For cost and technical reasons we are unlikely to worry too much about that in the short term. Vodafone have been quite fair about offering us telephone capability, its just that we're unlikely to sell enough of it to make the phone service pay.

gwh

73 posts

Master Geek

#586009 23-Feb-2012 23:24

codyc1515:
grant_k: Speaking as someone who has been using "RBI style" wireless broadband since Jan 2004 (remember project PROBE), I don't consider the ongoing monthly pricing of RBI as too bad. Currently I'm paying $95 for 10GB with 1Mbps download and 340kbps upload speeds.

The RBI service from our nearest Vodafone tower should at least double or triple my download speed, and probably increase my upload speed even more.

I am not impressed with two things:

1) The Installation Cost. $848 for a Yagi antenna, a 3G wireless VoIP router and a technician's visit is simply gouging. My Cisco SRP521W supports a 3G modem, and it does VoIP as well as N-WiFi. Cost about $300, and the Yagi antennae were less than $100 last time I checked. A one or two hour install and up to 2 hours of travel time don't come anywhere near $448.

2) The Calling Charges for the VoIP phone service. They are as follows:

National calls are $0.26 per minute and capped at $2.50 per call (up to 2 hours - after which you will be charged at standard calling rates). Calls to New Zealand mobiles are $0.36 per minute.

Compare those with WxC's VFX service @ 5c per minute to landlines, or 28c per minute to mobiles. Unless a subscriber makes very few phone calls, they would be better off to pay WxC's $11.25 monthly charge, and not use the Vodafone bundled phone service at all.

I would have to agree with both your points and add one. First of all: the install should be optional. Just as you do not have to pay $200~ every time you want to connect to an ISP with DSL you should not be required to pay the outrageous price for virtually the same thing. On the second point I would say the call pricing is roughly comparable to that of a landline. Keep in mind, to my knowledge, the phone is not VoIP but rather GSM/UMTS. The one thing I would like to add is that even if you opt for the option without the phoneline there is no discount offered at all. Why not? Surely there is a cost to provide this that could reduce the total cost if not offered?

Hi codyc1515
Right at the moment the installation can't be optional. That may change for some companies but any ISP who is aware of the pitfalls of the Woosh self install process is unlikely to want the customer involved.
There's a few good reasons why the service shouldn't be self installed.

1. Quality control of the installation. We pay our installers to do a good job. Our experience is that the quality of workmanship and parts used in self installs of anything to do with wifi radio or satellite mounted on a roof or exterior wall is as rough as guts unless the person really knows what they're doing. The RBI units are capable of connecting using an internal antennae but most ISPs wouldn't touch that sort of setup with a barge pole.

2. The setup onto the local cellsite is not straight forward The device is locked to the cellsite at installation and it can't be moved to another without Vodafone assistance. Functionally the modem works like a T stick or Vodem but behind the scenes everything happens quite differently.

3. Who are you going to complain to if/when the service fails? What if we come out and find water in a connector you put together? Bear in mind we pay our installer techs time and material for faults and some of our customers live a long way from the installers base. Should we as the ISP pay that, or you as the customer who did the self install? We've removed that question from the situation. If the problem is in your IT equipment such as your computer, you pay. if its in our broadband gear (be that satellite, wifi or RBI) we pay. Telecom lead the way with that method and as an ISP owner I think its the only way to go. Otherwise we become very cheap tech support as Telecom's field staff were before Telecom made the change.

4. No, you dont generally have to pay to get connected to DSL but you do often have to pay to break the contract. With the RBI its really down to the ISP whether a contract term is enforced. We have a very limited contract for our Wifi and RBI services because for a start we sell a lot of our services to customers who move regularly from farm to farm. For another, with our wifi services and with the RBI, we get our money up front so if you pack up on gypsy day and move away, whether you've been with us a week or a year, you've done your dough but, on the other hand, you aren't landed with an extra bill for pulling out of a contract early either.

With DSL, the ISP kindly sends you a generally second rate DSL modem free of charge for connecting. Except, as we know, nothing is for nothing these days. Somewhere along the line a bean counter has factored that modem into your monthly charges. With the RBI, virtually none of the cost of the installation need be factored into monthly charges because as I mentioned, the ISP gets most of its money up front. In addition, the device we install for connecting you to the service contains a wifi AP and 4 port switch which although you don't own, nor do you have to concern yourself about replacing or maintaining. If it breaks down through no fault of yours at anytime you have service with us, we'll install a new one free of charge.

5. The phone service has great potential but in my experience rural people are holding onto their PSTN copper connections with a vice like grip. Your point about reducing the cost of connections without phone service is taken but I believe the $80 base plan without phone is likely to be the true base plan for this service and the package with phone line is actually a marketing ploy.

codyc1515

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#586012 23-Feb-2012 23:30

gwh:
codyc1515:
grant_k: Speaking as someone who has been using "RBI style" wireless broadband since Jan 2004 (remember project PROBE), I don't consider the ongoing monthly pricing of RBI as too bad. Currently I'm paying $95 for 10GB with 1Mbps download and 340kbps upload speeds.

The RBI service from our nearest Vodafone tower should at least double or triple my download speed, and probably increase my upload speed even more.

I am not impressed with two things:

1) The Installation Cost. $848 for a Yagi antenna, a 3G wireless VoIP router and a technician's visit is simply gouging. My Cisco SRP521W supports a 3G modem, and it does VoIP as well as N-WiFi. Cost about $300, and the Yagi antennae were less than $100 last time I checked. A one or two hour install and up to 2 hours of travel time don't come anywhere near $448.

2) The Calling Charges for the VoIP phone service. They are as follows:

National calls are $0.26 per minute and capped at $2.50 per call (up to 2 hours - after which you will be charged at standard calling rates). Calls to New Zealand mobiles are $0.36 per minute.

Compare those with WxC's VFX service @ 5c per minute to landlines, or 28c per minute to mobiles. Unless a subscriber makes very few phone calls, they would be better off to pay WxC's $11.25 monthly charge, and not use the Vodafone bundled phone service at all.

I would have to agree with both your points and add one. First of all: the install should be optional. Just as you do not have to pay $200~ every time you want to connect to an ISP with DSL you should not be required to pay the outrageous price for virtually the same thing. On the second point I would say the call pricing is roughly comparable to that of a landline. Keep in mind, to my knowledge, the phone is not VoIP but rather GSM/UMTS. The one thing I would like to add is that even if you opt for the option without the phoneline there is no discount offered at all. Why not? Surely there is a cost to provide this that could reduce the total cost if not offered?

4. No, you dont generally have to pay to get connected to DSL but you do often have to pay to break the contract. With the RBI its really down to the ISP whether a contract term is enforced. We have a very limited contract for our Wifi and RBI services because for a start we sell a lot of our services to customers who move regularly from farm to farm. For another, with our wifi services and with the RBI, we get our money up front so if you pack up on gypsy day and move away, whether you've been with us a week or a year, you've done your dough but, on the other hand, you aren't landed with an extra bill for pulling out of a contract early either.

With DSL, the ISP kindly sends you a generally second rate DSL modem free of charge for connecting. Except, as we know, nothing is for nothing these days. Somewhere along the line a bean counter has factored that modem into your monthly charges. With the RBI, virtually none of the cost of the installation need be factored into monthly charges because as I mentioned, the ISP gets most of its money up front. In addition, the device we install for connecting you to the service contains a wifi AP and 4 port switch which although you don't own, nor do you have to concern yourself about replacing or maintaining. If it breaks down through no fault of yours at anytime you have service with us, we'll install a new one free of charge.

Its funny that you should mention device ownership as I now notice that the Vodafone terms have changed and I don't believe I can find any bit that specifically mentions that now.

grant_k

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#586027 24-Feb-2012 00:03

gwh: 4. No, you dont generally have to pay to get connected to DSL but you do often have to pay to break the contract. With the RBI its really down to the ISP whether a contract term is enforced. We have a very limited contract for our Wifi and RBI services because for a start we sell a lot of our services to customers who move regularly from farm to farm. For another, with our wifi services and with the RBI, we get our money up front so if you pack up on gypsy day and move away, whether you've been with us a week or a year, you've done your dough but, on the other hand, you aren't landed with an extra bill for pulling out of a contract early either.

Presumably though, if one of your customers upped sticks and moved on gypsy day, they wouldn't be charged the full whack for installation at the new property, given that the same equipment could be used again?

gwh

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Master Geek

#586055 24-Feb-2012 07:53

codyc1515:
gwh:
codyc1515:
grant_k: Speaking as someone who has been using "RBI style" wireless broadband since Jan 2004 (remember project PROBE), I don't consider the ongoing monthly pricing of RBI as too bad. Currently I'm paying $95 for 10GB with 1Mbps download and 340kbps upload speeds.

The RBI service from our nearest Vodafone tower should at least double or triple my download speed, and probably increase my upload speed even more.

I am not impressed with two things:

1) The Installation Cost. $848 for a Yagi antenna, a 3G wireless VoIP router and a technician's visit is simply gouging. My Cisco SRP521W supports a 3G modem, and it does VoIP as well as N-WiFi. Cost about $300, and the Yagi antennae were less than $100 last time I checked. A one or two hour install and up to 2 hours of travel time don't come anywhere near $448.

2) The Calling Charges for the VoIP phone service. They are as follows:

National calls are $0.26 per minute and capped at $2.50 per call (up to 2 hours - after which you will be charged at standard calling rates). Calls to New Zealand mobiles are $0.36 per minute.

Compare those with WxC's VFX service @ 5c per minute to landlines, or 28c per minute to mobiles. Unless a subscriber makes very few phone calls, they would be better off to pay WxC's $11.25 monthly charge, and not use the Vodafone bundled phone service at all.

I would have to agree with both your points and add one. First of all: the install should be optional. Just as you do not have to pay $200~ every time you want to connect to an ISP with DSL you should not be required to pay the outrageous price for virtually the same thing. On the second point I would say the call pricing is roughly comparable to that of a landline. Keep in mind, to my knowledge, the phone is not VoIP but rather GSM/UMTS. The one thing I would like to add is that even if you opt for the option without the phoneline there is no discount offered at all. Why not? Surely there is a cost to provide this that could reduce the total cost if not offered?

4. No, you dont generally have to pay to get connected to DSL but you do often have to pay to break the contract. With the RBI its really down to the ISP whether a contract term is enforced. We have a very limited contract for our Wifi and RBI services because for a start we sell a lot of our services to customers who move regularly from farm to farm. For another, with our wifi services and with the RBI, we get our money up front so if you pack up on gypsy day and move away, whether you've been with us a week or a year, you've done your dough but, on the other hand, you aren't landed with an extra bill for pulling out of a contract early either.

With DSL, the ISP kindly sends you a generally second rate DSL modem free of charge for connecting. Except, as we know, nothing is for nothing these days. Somewhere along the line a bean counter has factored that modem into your monthly charges. With the RBI, virtually none of the cost of the installation need be factored into monthly charges because as I mentioned, the ISP gets most of its money up front. In addition, the device we install for connecting you to the service contains a wifi AP and 4 port switch which although you don't own, nor do you have to concern yourself about replacing or maintaining. If it breaks down through no fault of yours at anytime you have service with us, we'll install a new one free of charge.

Its funny that you should mention device ownership as I now notice that the Vodafone terms have changed and I don't believe I can find any bit that specifically mentions that now.

That is up to each individual ISP I suppose. We have to purchase the routers from VF and the other parts from a variety of wholesalers. We prefer to retain ownership as we can maintain control over quality of the parts used in the service and as I've said before , if it breaks , we'll fix it. Vodafone only decide for themselves. The other RBI ISps can please themselves

gwh

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Master Geek

#586056 24-Feb-2012 07:59

grant_k:
gwh: 4. No, you dont generally have to pay to get connected to DSL but you do often have to pay to break the contract. With the RBI its really down to the ISP whether a contract term is enforced. We have a very limited contract for our Wifi and RBI services because for a start we sell a lot of our services to customers who move regularly from farm to farm. For another, with our wifi services and with the RBI, we get our money up front so if you pack up on gypsy day and move away, whether you've been with us a week or a year, you've done your dough but, on the other hand, you aren't landed with an extra bill for pulling out of a contract early either.

Presumably though, if one of your customers upped sticks and moved on gypsy day, they wouldn't be charged the full whack for installation at the new property, given that the same equipment could be used again?

it would be on a case by case basis. The labour cost isn't tranferrable for instance and we've already had to subsidise the cost of installation to that customer once already so we wouldn't rush to do it again within the space of less than a year. They wouldn't necessarily pay the full cost of installation again but they have to be prepared to pay something.

grant_k

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#586143 24-Feb-2012 10:55

gwh: it would be on a case by case basis. The labour cost isn't tranferrable for instance and we've already had to subsidise the cost of installation to that customer once already so we wouldn't rush to do it again within the space of less than a year. They wouldn't necessarily pay the full cost of installation again but they have to be prepared to pay something.

Sounds fair enough Glenn, I can't argue with any of that.

On the subject of the router, do you know if it's possible to disable its WiFi function?
Because my Cisco SRP521W is much more capable in that regard.

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