Copper Services Investigation

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MichaelNZ

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#319123 24-Mar-2025 16:40

Anyone on copper services (ADSL and VDSL) will likely be affected by this and should make a submission.

At present Chorus has to rollout UFB in an affected area before turning off the copper network. This has already happened in parts of Auckland and I think we are all in agreement this is logical and fine.

The change they are seeking here is to decommission all copper services by 2030 regardless of UFB status and force those users to whatever they can get (if anything)

Chorus have no UFB rollout commitment past "mid 2025".

Copper Services Investigation under section 69AH of the Telecommunications Act

Report to the Minister for Media and Communications on whether
Schedule 1 should be altered in respect of regulation of the relevant copper
services
Draft recommendation report

Link to PDF

Key points:

Only copper (ADSL and VDSL) and UFB services are open access and regulated allowing customers to chose from a large range of ISP's
Wireless service operators are likely holding their prices down due to competition from copper. If this was no longer an option they could increase their prices and not need to provide any level of service.
The status quo requires Chorus to migrate areas to UFB so they can turn off the copper network in that area. If they can get out of it anyway they no longer have this incentive.
Chorus own marketing claims issues with wireless: Sharing bandwidth? It might be why your internet is slow. and Wireless broadband fine print: Avoid sharing
WISP (wireless ISP's) at risk from Starlink. Real possibility of this foreign owned company becoming the only provider in non-UFB areas.

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Wheelbarrow01

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#3358028 27-Mar-2025 21:22

MichaelNZ:

NeillB:

It seems using the existing overhead infrastructure / poles is not an option for them.

They used to do this but then changed the policy and now bury everything. I think this was dumb and has massively slowed the deployment. It might make sense in the leafy suburbs but in rural areas we don't care. Its not like they will be undergrounding the power anytime soon if ever.

They did? Not as far as I am aware. Fibre reticulation methodology is and always has been largely dictated by the Resource Management Act.

Aerial pathway installation is always used where there are existing use rights. In these cases, the fibre is strung aerially as a replacement of the original copper cable (not in addition). It's essentially a one up, one down system and it's still very much done today.

In locations where the copper is underground, the fibre must also go underground in a like for like manner. It's worth pointing out that many streets have a mixture of both underground and overhead cabling and the fibre is handled accordingly. At our place for example, our neighbours on both sides are fed underground, but our old copper was aerial for reasons I've never understood - so our fibre is also aerial.

In new developments, the fibre must go underground. The master developer pays for this and it's generally factored into the list price for the bare sections when they are released for sale.

In existing property redevelopments it's slightly different again. Let's assume an old house with an aerial copper (or fibre) connection is demolished. As soon as that aerial cable is cut down off the old house, the existing use right is gone. The new house built on the site MUST be serviced via an underground connection. The developer will pay a fee for the conversion to underground reticulation from the base of the nearest pole to the replacement dwelling (plus a development fee for any additional dwellings built onsite that require fibre reticulation - also underground).

To address the specific comment of @NeillB above, while Chorus can use the existing overhead infrastructure, this can only be done on a like for like basis - taking down a copper cable anywhere a new fibre cable goes up. That's easy when it's a 2 pair copper cable not still being used by multiple customers. (eg in the case of a 20, 40, 50 pair copper cable - a likely scenario on a 300 metre stretch).

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

raytaylor

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#3358352 28-Mar-2025 19:27

This sounds like another attempt to get a taxpayer funded expansion into norsewood.
One where i have previously posted about being uneconomic based on the drilling costs.

Michael, if you can sort out the civils - trenching, drilling and traffic management, i'll happily lay our cables into those trenches around the village. I have a couple of containers here full of microduct and a couple of spare OLTs ready to go.

With regards to chorus switching off copper, it needs to be done.

Not only are there plenty of wisp operators around the country, they are also in competition against starlink and several other LEO networks coming to market. Eg. Kuiper
Its not like there will be no options.

My fear though with the likes of starlink is the lack of salaries paid to local faultmen and installers within the community.
A wisp typically has a team of installers and faultmen who also perform tasks such as wifi extensions, data cabling etc and will look after the internal side of the demarcation.
Starlink doesnt employ people to maintain those skills and so because their salaries are not subsidized by the monthly service fees, getting someone in with those skills does cost a fortune.
People dont want to spend the money, so the skilled people go into other trades or move away which makes it even more expensive to try and find some one that does.

Eg. The only skilled wifi installer in central hawkes bay recently died.
We used to keep him 50% busy with wisp installations and fault jobs which meant he was available at a reasonable rate for the other 50% of his time for internal reticulation jobs.
He was also traveling all areas of the district regularly and so travel charges were cheap because if someone needed a job done, we would have him in the area weekly or fortnightly.
So now we are sending people down from Napier on 200km round trips which has made a simple $300 secondary AP installation now $600
I know of areas where the local wisp is no longer hiring based on future expansion because starlink is taking away revenue which would have gone into such skilled people in the community.

I have noticed a few customers in copper switch off areas where the installations have simply been too difficult and they would get left behind. Until they are the last few active copper connections in the area when Chorus wants to shut off the copper, then they suddenly get more attention and the installs seem to happen. I know of one site we have been waiting over 3 years (first order attempt might have been 5 years ago now) and another was waiting about 18 months.

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Wheelbarrow01

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#3358371 28-Mar-2025 23:05

MichaelNZ:

You realise that's almost everyone with UFB.

Including the 13km they are presently doing through Waitakere to reach around 40 clients. I have done the actual numbers for here and they could get the same number of connections in around 2.5km. So any talk of "drilling costs" is irrelevant.

The Waitakere extension seems like a bad example, because the new build area is directly bordered from the north, east and south by areas that already have fibre, so it seems like it's plugging a local gap as opposed to connecting a satellite location some distance away.

This build extension includes Anzac Valley Rd, Wendy Rd, Steed Rd, a small part of Te Henga Rd in the south, and about half of Awhiorangi Promenade (the half that doesn't already have fibre).

See my crude representation below and compare to the extension map on the Chorus website:

map of Waitakere South

I'm not sure what your "13km they are presently doing through Waitakere" statement refers to? The area currently being built starts directly across the road from a location that already has fibre, and the entire extension only spans about 2.75km north to south as the crow flies.

Unless I'm mistaken and looking at the wrong area? (taken from https://www.chorus.co.nz/residential/fibre-extension )

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

BMarquis

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#3358677 30-Mar-2025 10:21

MichaelNZ:

It seems so obvious.

In our area they already have the OLT (Optical Line Terminal) at the exchange which is the single most expensive component. So it won't take much to start rolling out that cable and stringing it up and then they can disconnect the DSL network and everyone is happy.

I think you have quite a few incorrect assumptions about both Norsewood and other fibre deployment areas.
Things are absolutely not as obvious or simple as you may think.

As an example - we do not have an OLT in Norsewood. And with regards to putting one there - My guess is that the OLT is unlikely to be the most expensive component.

Similar to what Ray said. If you get community involvement to share the cost and possibly the work involved, we have a process for that.
https://www.chorus.co.nz/residential/rural-and-regional

BMarquis

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#3358731 30-Mar-2025 12:32

While I wont be drawn into a discussion here about costs/charges/free/whatever.
A. Its not appropriate
B. that’s not my responsibility/area
C. I don't have visibility of the specifics of the previous quotes.

That aside - My understanding is that Norsewood exchange code is NWD.
There is no NWD OLT in the management system for OLTs.

We don’t have to serve a UFB service from the local exchange, so perhaps you would be fed from somewhere else. That's the cool thing about fibre - the reach is much better than copper and, therefore it provides options that might not have previously existed.

My, personal, opinions......

The quote for my address dropped by $40k after the RCG cellsite.

That sounds like a better situation than MANY other rural properties. I really hope you are considering if the cost now aligns with the personal value of fibre connectivity to you. Based on this discussion it sounds like that value is, at least subjectively, high.

In summary Norsewood is nothing different from some of the other places yourselves (or the other operators) have rolled out and the residents have gotten their "free" install.

It is different - Chorus has chosen not to roll out fibre in Norsewood. Maybe one day they will, maybe they won't.

freitasm

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#3368109 27-Apr-2025 20:40

MichaelNZ:

freitasm:

What's the bet that if you continue to maker this personal instead of discussing the topic your account is banned without warning?

Said member has been making repeated personal comments about myself and the other poster.

I read this thread. There's no such a thing. I'm locking this discussion because it seems the OP can't take arguments.