Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.




68 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


Topic # 10214 10-Nov-2006 13:17
Send private message

From stuff

The Government is poised to force a far-reaching restructuring on Telecom that would split New Zealand's biggest company into three divisions - all with separate management.

The so-called operational break-up, into retail, wholesale and network arms, is more radical than a requirement contained in the Telecommunications Amendment Bill for separate accounts from the divisions.

The split also goes well beyond Telecom's counter-offer to divide its operations into two companies, retail and wholesale, the latter including its network.

The revamp of Telecom would stop short of ownership separation, which could ultimately see three separate companies listed on the stock exchange.

However, Telecom is lobbying hard to remove even stronger measures which would give the Government the power to force an ownership split into three "baby Telecoms" if the operational split did not meet expectations.

Telecom management fear this so-called "Sword of Damocles" provision would discourage investment and hit the company's share price.

They are also concerned that competitors would say the new environment was not working if more draconian measures were hanging over its head.

spac_writeAd("/site=s/area=s.stuff.business/aamsz=300x250/cParliament's finance and expenditure select committee is considering the bill - which also includes plans to open up Telecom's network to competition - and is due to report back by early December.

Government sources said the committee was being given a strong steer from Prime Minister Helen Clark's office to adopt the three-way split. It was expected there would be "a meeting of minds" with the committee.

If not, the Government would introduce amendments to impose the split when the bill came back to the House.

Under the split, the three divisions would have separate management, though they would likely have the same chief executive, board and ownership.

Telecom spokesman John Goulter said the company was waiting for the select committee report and would not comment till then. "We put up a proposal, but we said it was a proposal and it was one to negotiate."

 

The government is not happy in the least and Telecom is paying and SHOULD be learning a hard lesson.

I hope they split up the ownership too, very good stuff, it seems that clearly with the LLU and the Government strong arming Telecom there is now nothing that stands in the way of better internet service other than of course time for all of this to pay off...

There has been innovation, now hopefully there can be an enviroment that may let it thrive, and until it does the existing network can give a faster fix.

It is interesting, the government never indicated it was going to go this hard, so I think it's clear that it hoped that Telecom's behavious since May might have improved but clearly it has failed in many ways including charging wholesale ISP's more than it charges it's own customers, not rolling out ADSL2+, rolling out the full speed plans at the last possible moment wasting months and then clearly not being ready for it.

Telecom hasn't 'got it' yet, but it had better 'get it' soon or it will be regulated beyond recognition! Wake up call for Telecom, Auntie Helen ain't kidding!


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
 1 | 2 | 3
BDFL - Memuneh
60048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 11134

Administrator
Trusted
Geekzone
Lifetime subscriber

Reply # 51866 10-Nov-2006 13:26
Send private message

Big corporations are there for the long run. Governments are there for the next election. Just look at AT&T. The U.S. goverment forced it to break up into the "Baby Bells". Almost 25 years later they are technically all a single company, again.

They are resilient, those big companies...






652 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 27

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 51867 10-Nov-2006 13:54
Send private message

I don't want to be accused of defending Telecom for the sake of it (like MF, I am a TCL user at home and a Citylink fibre user in my business) but i don't see how this move is going to open us up for better internet services?

You mention about Telecom holding back on ADSL2+ amongst other things - from a meeting I had with some of their technology managers, this was/is ready to go but the whole unbundling saga has forced Telecom to instead put more empahsis on other areas of their network, providing naked DSL for one. I think we agree on at least one point and that is taht it would be brilliant to have had ADSL2+ released now or at least in the very near future, but from a business perspective, there is no way I would be chucking it out there in the market place knowing that every man and his dog can get on the bandwagon and demand it wholesale to resell to you and I. TNZ put in the R&D and the scavenging ISPs out there are/will be wanting to reap the benefits for no capital outlay at all (granted some ISPs have indicated implementing their own ADSL2+ infrastructure at their own cost and good on them).

Unbundling has forced TNZ to shift focus to other areas, much to the disappointment of the likes of you and I, and THIS has been one of my main issues with the whole unbundling saga from the outset. It's really not worked that well elsewhere, why should we have thought it would work for us??

Shame really, NGN technologies would have been great and most probably in place now...

 
 
 
 


Try Wrike: fast, easy, and efficient project collaboration software


68 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 51872 10-Nov-2006 14:50
Send private message

bcourtney: I don't want to be accused of defending Telecom for the sake of it (like MF, I am a TCL user at home and a Citylink fibre user in my business) but i don't see how this move is going to open us up for better internet services?

You mention about Telecom holding back on ADSL2+ amongst other things - from a meeting I had with some of their technology managers, this was/is ready to go
How can it be ready when the system can't cope with ADSL speeds!?
but the whole unbundling saga has forced Telecom to instead put more empahsis on other areas of their network
What, Telecom can't walk and chew gum at the same time?
, providing naked DSL for one.
Well they haven't yet, and isn't that just a billing thing? don't turn on phone if the customer just wants DSL? Correct me if I'm wrong but that should take all of a day to work out BY MY SELF
I think we agree on at least one point and that is taht it would be brilliant to have had ADSL2+ released now
not really, I mean sure but eh, unless they gett the whole country hooked up by lunchtime tommorow what's the point, ADSL2+ is pretty old now, by the time it's rolled out everywhere and the bugs worked out (It's Telecom, there will be bugs) everyone else will have 100mbit.
or at least in the very near future, but from a business perspective, there is no way I would be chucking it out there in the market place knowing that every man and his dog can get on the bandwagon and demand it wholesale to resell to you and I.
That's the lesson Telecom has to learn, and until it does it's going to be to have the government regulating it heavily, the people and the Government demand better Broadband and Telecom will be torn into pieces till it complies.
TNZ put in the R&D
Wow, it invented crappy ADSL? no, what R&D are you talking about?
and the scavenging ISPs
If it weren't for these 'scavenging ISP's you'd still have 256kbit/128 with a 4GB cap for about $70 a month or something, all advances (until the Go Large and CUBS offer of full speed up) have been hard hard won victories won by wholesale ISP's going to the commerce commission, and all price improvments too, here is what you and Telecom don't get with your 'screwing people is profitible' theory, it turns out that lower prices and better service actually make MORE money, point in case, since we have been given an option as to who to make toll calls with the prices have plumbeted, they are less than a 10th of the price they used to be, possibly less, but Telecom made more money on Toll calls despite losing market share and slashing their prices, Toll Calls because something people could now afford to make so they spent far far more the the profits went up.
Same thing, if Telecom had gone unconstrained no latency and $30 a month of unlimited even naked ADSL back in 2000, and then upgraded to the latest technology all the white keeping speeds high it would have 100% of customers it can reach (most customers) and the ADSL subscription rate would be so much higher that they would be raking it in, their share price would be higher, everything would have been better, remember other countries can offer unlimited and it's SCC was in profit before it was completed and still only a fraction of it is used and it gets back 50% of what it pays the SCCN and even if it went unlimited it would be getting more back more from the SCCN than it pays (I looked it up, it's profitsharing so $ goes straight back to Telecom) so it literally gets 50% back of what it spends after the running costs of the network of course, it would be looking at a bright future of continued Monopoly. (New Zealanders responded to the internet better than most anywhere, we had huge numbers of people onlike in the dialup days, the reason for poor broadband uptake is soley due to no reasonible service for the majority of the population)
out there are/will be wanting to reap the benefits for no capital outlay at all (granted some ISPs have indicated implementing their own ADSL2+ infrastructure at their own cost and good on them).
So does this mean that Telecom aren't going to release ADSL2+ at all, and let the others win? Or does it mean they will only release ADSL2+ once unbundling is fully realized and other ISP's are starting to install DSLAM's? At which time any number of 'Scavenging' ISP's can choose to resell Telecom's ADSL2+ if they wish anyway.

It seems Telecom is going to try and make as little as possible from ADSL2+ by having the technology become totally obselete while still being rolled out, yup that's the Telecom we all know and love (to laugh at)


Unbundling has forced TNZ to shift focus to other areas, much to the disappointment of the likes of you and I, and THIS has been one of my main issues with the whole unbundling saga from the outset. It's really not worked that well elsewhere, why should we have thought it would work for us??
yeah, cause the broadband in the rest of the world is far far behind what we have here since we were celver and didn't unbundle.

Oh maybe it's you that was being sarcastic?
It's people like you that are the reason New Zealand goes 'Hmmm, lets see, this is working everywhere else really well, Let's do the exact opposite!'
What would posses you to say 'it's not worked that well elsewhere' when we have the worst broadband of any country out there with more than about 50 people, and actually there are some very small islands in the south pacific that put us to shame.


Shame really, NGN technologies would have been great and most probably in place now...

But we meant it this time, really, all the other times we delayed the rollout of out NGN it was just a joke but we were gonna really do it this time, we swear.
Do you know how Telecom was stinging the government along on that one?

Could I borrow a few thousand off you? I'll pay it back in one week to be sure. or maybe the week after that...

BDFL - Memuneh
60048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 11134

Administrator
Trusted
Geekzone
Lifetime subscriber

Reply # 51873 10-Nov-2006 15:01
Send private message

When he says "R&D" it doesn't necessarily mean "inventing". Each telco in the world operate in a different way. Billing, charging, operational systems are different. Things needed to be integrated.

When you say you can do this by yourself, I don't think you really appreciate the size of such a project.

I have worked in the communications industry as part of a system integrations team, and I can assure you no one in their right mind would ever say things can be done that quickly. And certainly not cheap.

In my previous role I was involved in deploying voice services for large operators, managing projects with mobile operators, and more. I don't think you appreciate when people say things here they are actually talking from experience.





Hawkes Bay
8477 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4

Mod Emeritus
Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 51876 10-Nov-2006 15:19
Send private message

antigrav:

  • What, Telecom can't walk and chew gum at the same time?
  • Correct me if I'm wrong but that should take all of a day to work out BY MY SELF
  • (It's Telecom, there will be bugs)
  • here is what you and Telecom don't get with your 'screwing people is profitible' theory,
  • It seems Telecom is going to try and make as little as possible from ADSL2+ by having the technology become totally obselete while still being rolled out, yup that's the Telecom we all know and love (to laugh at)


Really... for someone who tries to make it abundantly clear that you dont want to have yours, or other peoples views of Telecom itself clouding discussions you are involved in, and for someone who goes on about the Telecom apologists/defenders, you seem to be an out and out Telecom hater - yet its okay for you to make all these comments, but not for people on the other side of the fence to make opposing views (unless you deem it to be an intelligent response).

You have moaned/crowed a few times that people are not replying to statements you make about Telecom, but its no wonder people dont want to attempt much in the way of intelligent debate when they are up against someone like you putting words in peoples mouths with things like "your 'screwing people is profitable' theory".

And working out naked DSL by yourself in one day? Well.... i could assume your level of debate and tell you what i think of that, but im sure i dont have to for other people to work it out.

Good luck with stuff, and things, and whatever...

*yawn*




Visit http://www.thecloud.net.nz for New Zealand based Hosted Exchange, Virtual Servers, Web Hosting, FTP Backup & more.
(1GB free FTP storage, or larger plans from $5.75)
 
 - Setup your own mailserver at home on Ubuntu Server - full step by step howto here.
 - Have you seen this: Nathan "KFC4LIFE" Dunn.


891 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 46

Trusted

  Reply # 51883 10-Nov-2006 15:29
Send private message

bcourtney: TNZ put in the R&D and the scavenging ISPs out there are/will be wanting to reap the benefits for no capital outlay at all (granted some ISPs have indicated implementing their own ADSL2+ infrastructure at their own cost and good on them)


Don't forget what the scavenging ISPs are paying Telecom is based on cost-plus (or retail-minus? [*]) so they are covering all Telecom's costs plus a bit extra as a return on investment. So if the scavenging ISPs are doing nothing but stealing customers from Xtra then possible it's possibly hurting Telecom (it loses that retail margin) but if they are new customers then its earning money where it wouldn't have before. And that's what competition is all about.

The ISPs - they do avoid capex (and the associated business risk) but they have to front up with huge opex every month. It's swings and roundabouts for them - I'm sure the bigger ones will want their own infrastructure to cut costs once they are established in the market and the risk is reduced.

Telecom - what's better for them - the whole of a small pie or part of a large pie?

[*] It's retail-minus isn't it? Hence the wholesale prices go up as Xtra's customers migrate to more expensive plans




 

1200 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3

Trusted

  Reply # 51889 10-Nov-2006 15:46
Send private message


to bcourtney which said

~~~~~~~~~~~~
You mention about Telecom holding back on ADSL2+ amongst other things - from a meeting I had with some of their technology managers, this was/is ready to go but the whole unbundling saga has forced Telecom to instead put more empahsis on other areas of their network, providing naked DSL for one. I think we agree on at least one point and that is taht it would be brilliant to have had ADSL2+ released now or at least in the very near future, but from a business perspective, there is no way I would be chucking it out there in the market place knowing that every man and his dog can get on the bandwagon and demand it wholesale to resell to you and I. TNZ put in the R&D and the scavenging ISPs out there are/will be wanting to reap the benefits for no capital outlay at all (granted some ISPs have indicated implementing their own ADSL2+ infrastructure at their own cost and good on them).

Unbundling has forced TNZ to shift focus to other areas, much to the disappointment of the likes of you and I, and THIS has been one of my main issues with the whole unbundling saga from the outset. It's really not worked that well elsewhere, why should we have thought it would work for us??
~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's amusing to hear the Telecom stories that they had to grind the ADSL2 rollout to a halt, because the engineering resources are required for naked DSL and unleashed.

If Unleashed was the priority was really the reason why the stopped the ADSL2 upgrade, then the engineers would have been tasked to get their network ready for Unleashed.

What exactly would this entail?

Develop a spectrum management plan for its DSL network, which was deployed in 1999. NOT DONE.
Upgrade the backhaul links to cope with the potential for twice the network traffic

So - who out there thinks Telecom moved all it's engineering talent to upgrade their JetStream backhaul? Yeah Right...

You suggest Telecom would not get any money from ISPs because they are scavenging (or not paying???) You do realise that Telecom actually charge ISP's MORE for a DSL connection alone, than Xtra sells the connection plus services (international traffic, helpdesk, e-mail etc for)






Tyler - Parnell Geek - iPhone 3G - Lenovo X301 - Kaseya - Great Western Steak House, these are some of my favourite things.



68 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 51893 10-Nov-2006 16:10
Send private message

Ok, I'm going to need someone to explain this to me.

What does naked DSL (which we don't have yet and won't have for a while) mean?
What is it?

My understanding was that it involved having DSL on a line which you do not have phone services on.
Now if that's the case I really don't see what the problem is, infact even IF there were some technical issue requiring them to run the line (have it on for phone services) because that might somehow effect ADSL operation somehow they could just block all calls at the exchange, so partilly undressed ADSL ;)

But obviously there is no such technical issue, in case the only issue left to take care of is billing, now granted Telecom do have an issue with charging people less but again this is a non issue.

So can someone please help me explain why the reason we don't have ADSL2+ yet is because they couldn't work out nakedDSL?

And IF somehow all the effort went into taking phone services off a DSL line then please explain why they bothered to do nakedDSL long before there was any intention for them to launch it?

And if getting ready for nakedDSL takes a year as that's about how far back ADSL2+ has been pushed back then seriously how do you expect then to launch an ADSL2+ network with the required backhaul upgrades required if it takes them a year to seperate phone and DSL services from a line?

And you can't claim that it was getting ready for unconstrained that took all the time because for one they weren't ready and besides except for installing new DSLAM's the upgrades required for ADSL2+ are the same only much more than required for full speed ADSL which after 6-7 years they still haven't got right.

So no, you can't claim that it's all to taxing on them, they just did't have the time.
Now the argument that they don't want to have ISP's reselling ADSL2+ though quite possibly their short sighted reason for the delays besides of course not being all that together) is stupid because the profit margin of those 'scavenging' ISP's are so paper thin many are losing money, only the Tolls keep them afloat.


652 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 27

Trusted
Subscriber

Reply # 51897 10-Nov-2006 16:36
Send private message

Lesson learned *never post a reply in a thread created by antigrav*

All comments completely taken out of context.

antigrav - I second the comments made by tonyhughes

TinyTim - Fully understand and agree with your comments. My comment on scavenging was somewhat tongue-in-cheek directed at the likes of Slingshot who are the first to begin berating Telecom and the current infrastrcuture in NZ, are the first to jump all over reselling the services that Telecom provides wholesale to them, yet I imagine will be the last to contribute to the upgrade of any of the infrastructure themselves - more than willing to take and complain but don't want to give anything back

exportgoldman - I made no such comment about the engineering resources specifically, but feel free to embelish if you see fit. As MF commented, there is more to project implementation than just the engineering side of things. And I made no such comment that Telecom would not get any money from the ISPs (see comment above).

Seriously, what was the point of this thread? Like I've mentioned before, I have very limited ties to Telecom and certainly no product loyalty, yet these constant Telecom bashings are getting as tedious as hell. If the main point was to begin intelligent debate on the splitting of Telecom into 3 separate entities, then why hasn't this happened? Answer = there is one common factor in all recent threads relating to Telecom (read: see tonyhughes' comment)


891 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 46

Trusted

  Reply # 51906 10-Nov-2006 17:31
Send private message

exportgoldman:

You suggest Telecom would not get any money from ISPs because they are scavenging (or not paying???) You do realise that Telecom actually charge ISP's MORE for a DSL connection alone, than Xtra sells the connection plus services (international traffic, helpdesk, e-mail etc for)


I don't know exactly what goes on but the point is Telecom doesn't get anything less than a fair deal when wholesaling its services. (Of course a fair deal is always open to interpretation.)




 

1200 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3

Trusted

  Reply # 51918 10-Nov-2006 18:59
Send private message

exportgoldman- I made no such comment about the engineering resources specifically, but feel free to embelish if you see fit. As MF commented, there is more to project implementation than just the engineering side of things. And I made no such comment that Telecom would not get any money from the ISPs (see comment above).


Actually you said "has forced Telecom to instead put more empahsis on other areas of their network, providing naked DSL for one"

I assumed that empahsis (sp) actually meant engineering work, either planning or deployment. I couldn't find MF or any comments about this in this thread.

I'm amused that you have swallowed Telecom's excuses so whole heartedly, seriously, that is a large thing to swallow. Was it tasty? (If we are to start personal attacks, I wanna have a go as well ok :-)

Seriously, you make it sound like Telecom make no money because every ISP is 'scavenging' What do you mean by this then?

You do realise that a ISP loses money on broadband connections (the lower end one) as Xtra can SELL the connection + traffic + helpdesk etc for LESS than a ISP can buy it at wholesale for.

Your comment about Telecom "but from a business perspective, there is no way I would be chucking it out there in the market place knowing that every man and his dog can get on the bandwagon and demand it wholesale to resell to you and I. TNZ put in the R&D and the scavenging ISPs out there are/will be wanting to reap the benefits for no capital outlay at all (granted some ISPs have indicated implementing their own ADSL2+ infrastructure at their own cost and good on them)"

Seems bizzare, If I knew I could invest capital into a service, and know there was a massive population of users who through wholesalers (ISPs) wanting to resell this service, I would invest the capital.

Your say that ISP's reaping the benefits of ADSL2+ without a capital relay is strange, someone invested in capital, and has a reseller onsell the service and make a bit (tiny) amount of money. You earn a profit and pay off the capital expense.

You think that the ISP's should give Telecom money for simply building the ADSL2+ network, or are you worried Telecom won't make money on the ADSL2+ network.

Or have your Telecom friends made you believe the story that delaying ADSL2+ is a good thing, and no simply designed to piss off the government?

The whole issue is ISP's would LOVE to develop their own ADSL2+ infrastructure, but can't because of unbundling, and Telecom stopping them from renting the copper lines.

Well - guess what, ISP's will be doing just that next year, and I think I speak for everyone here and my clients when I say Telecom can then f*** off.

I have spent far too much of my technical life dealing with problems with Telecoms network caused by underinvestment.









Tyler - Parnell Geek - iPhone 3G - Lenovo X301 - Kaseya - Great Western Steak House, these are some of my favourite things.



68 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 51933 10-Nov-2006 22:43
Send private message

Thanks expertgoldman, that was a good read.

And if people would stop defending Telecom with obviously bogus 'facts' then discussions like this wouldn't exist,..

BDFL - Memuneh
60048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 11134

Administrator
Trusted
Geekzone
Lifetime subscriber

Reply # 51934 10-Nov-2006 22:52
Send private message

antigrav: And if people would stop defending Telecom with obviously bogus 'facts' then discussions like this wouldn't exist,..


I promised myself I wouldn't reply to this thread anymore, but here we go... Disagreeing with you doesn't mean defending Telecom. Is it hard to understand this?





Nate wants an iphone
3900 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 28

Mod Emeritus
Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

Reply # 51937 10-Nov-2006 23:12
Send private message

antigrav: ....
And if people would stop attacking Telecom with obviously bogus 'facts' then discussions like this wouldn't exist,..

Don't worry, I've corrected your typo for you. 





webhosting |New Zealand connectionsgeekzone IRC chat
Loose lips may sink ships - Be smart - Don't post internal/commercially sensitive or confidential information!


2365 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 12

Trusted
Spark

Reply # 51938 10-Nov-2006 23:25
Send private message

freitasm, When do you think we users could expect an antigrav button? I could really do with an early Christmas present!?!?!









 1 | 2 | 3
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Opera launches new mobile browser: Opera Touch
Posted 25-Apr-2018 20:45


TCF and Telcos Toughen Up on Scam Callers
Posted 23-Apr-2018 09:39


Amazon launches the International Shopping Experience in the Amazon Shopping App
Posted 19-Apr-2018 08:38


Spark New Zealand and TVNZ to bring coverage of Rugby World Cup 2019
Posted 16-Apr-2018 06:55


How Google can seize Microsoft Office crown
Posted 14-Apr-2018 11:08


How back office transformation drives IRD efficiency
Posted 12-Apr-2018 21:15


iPod laws in a smartphone world: will we ever get copyright right?
Posted 12-Apr-2018 21:13


Lightbox service using big data and analytics to learn more about customers
Posted 9-Apr-2018 12:11


111 mobile caller location extended to iOS
Posted 6-Apr-2018 13:50


Huawei announces the HUAWEI P20 series
Posted 29-Mar-2018 11:41


Symantec Internet Security Threat Report shows increased endpoint technology risks
Posted 26-Mar-2018 18:29


Spark switches on long-range IoT network across New Zealand
Posted 26-Mar-2018 18:22


Stuff Pix enters streaming video market
Posted 21-Mar-2018 09:18


Windows no longer Microsoft’s main focus
Posted 13-Mar-2018 07:47


Why phone makers are obsessed with cameras
Posted 11-Mar-2018 12:25



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.