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raytaylor

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#10448 22-Nov-2006 22:41
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Hello everyone.

I am about to submit this complaint to the comcom / advertising standards authority and would like some feedback / opinions from the geekzone community:



Advertising Standards and Business Practices Complaint to the Commerce Commission of New Zealand.Misleading advertising by Xtra Ltd in relation to the advertised service Go LargeSubmitted by Ray Taylor

About the product:

Go large is a service to provide an internet connection via Telecoms DSL network to a residential customer.
It offers unlimited data transfer over the service plan and at the downstream (data transfer speed to the customers premises) theoretical maximum line speed. This varies on a user by user basis due to the telephone line distance from the Telecom exchange. The average user would expect between 1.5 to 8 mbps (megabits per second). The upstream (data traveling from the customers premises to the internet) speed is throttled / limited by Telecom to a maximum of 128 kbps or .128 mbps.

Limitations of the Go Large plan:
As part of this service plan, Telecom and Xtra place limits at peak times of the day. Within the hours of 4pm to midnight, a customer may not exceed any more than 700 megabytes of data transfer over their Go Large internet service plan. This is outlined in their Fair Use agreement. At the same time, Telecom and Xtra place a throttle and limit the speed of certain data types traveling over the service plan. The list of data types that has speed limitations can be found buried within the xtra website and accessible by clicking on a small link, or here:http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/xtratools/1,8752,205450-204362,00.html This is called their traffic management policy. Customers most likely to sign up for the Go Large service plan are the same customers that are most likely to use the throttled data types and applications found within this list.

False Advertising:
I would like to refer to the following paragraph found on the commerce commission website: http://www.comcom.govt.nz/FairTrading/TradePracticesCoveredbytheFairTradingAct/falseormisleadingadvertising.aspx

Fine print is also often used in contracts. The Act has a much broader application than contract law. In a number of cases, courts have decided that fine-print conditions in a contract cannot be relied upon to avoid liability under the Act if false or misleading statements have been made previously to encourage the signing of the contract.


The paragraph outlines that businesses cannot rely on fine print when conveying a message condition to their customers.
In the following case, Telecom has done exactly that. They buried fineprint, specifically the traffic management or the fair use policy, which was not presented to the customer before they signed up on the agreement. On Monday, November 13, 2006, Xtra Ltd advertised on their website http://www.xtra.co.nz/ the following banner. I have been unable to replicate the full animated banner because the Xtra web development team have made it impossible to copy, in case it may be used in a complaint, and can be easily changed. The banner consists of the following frames, pushed in front of each other by an overweight or large sumo wrestler.



At no point within the advertisement banner did Xtra state or show that their 700mb Fair Use policy or the limitations of the Traffic Management policy were applied to this service. The user is enticed to click on the banner, taking him or her to the following page for more information.

I would like to draw attention to the following paragraph on Page 1

It's super fast
All Xtra Broadband plans are at Maximum speed
- as fast as your line allows.



Even at this point where Xtra are listing the features of their broadband service, they still do not make any mention of the Fair Use or Traffic Management policy.
Near the middle of Page 1, there is a banner with 2 clearly defined buttons. They are labeled

Terms of offer and Sign up to Xtra today. If you cannot see this banner, a copy of it in a static image form is found in the resources as http://www.teamparodee.com/xtracomplaint/offerpage.png

A user can click on Terms of offer and be taken to this page:

The customer has now just been given 3 stages of information about the offer: advertisement, summary details, and a page titled Terms of offer.
In none of these 3 stages was the customer told of the Fair Use or Traffic Management policy. The customer can then click their back button and return to Page 1 and then click Sign up to Xtra today. This will begin the process to order the service. Telecom have also hidden a link on Page 1. If a user is on Page 1, and clicks on the Go Large banner at the top-middle of the page, they are taken to page 3. This banner looks in No Way like a button or clickable link and is deceptively hiding the information behind it.
Page 3 outlines that the Go Large service plan does indeed have the Fair use and Traffic Management policy applied to it, however most users who have come from the initial stage one advertisement (picture 1) are not presented with page 3 at all. Back on page 1, after clicking sign up and following the process there on in, they are presented with the Xtra terms of service / contract / fine print, where it does state the policies that apply. It is widely known that many users will not read through the pages and pages of this contract and will simply accept them without knowing.

Because of this, Xtra Ltd. have demonstrated that they are in fact relying on Fine Print to hide information that is clearly the reverse of, and not portrayed within the Main Message of the advertisement. This is a breach of the Fair Trading Act.



A throttled/ slowed connection and limited data allowance is the Complete Opposite of Unlimited internet usage and Maximum download speeds as fast as your phone line allows (as stated in resource picture 1)


Ray Taylor
(Removed personal details * see below* )

===========================================

As I said I would like to know what your comments / opinions are on this matter.

(Moderator Edit (BG) - Removed personal contact (Phone and address) details. Please refrain from posting such details as potentially anyone including people you don't want can collect and use those details)

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NokiaRocks
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  #53303 22-Nov-2006 23:00
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Maybe leave out your personal details when posting on a public forum?



Jama
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#53343 23-Nov-2006 08:30
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I hope you are going to complain about Microsoft as well. We all accept the EULA before installing software and I doubt most people read it. Or how about Sky? Their fine print when signing up is massive. The again Vodafone could be a good target as well with their 'Broadband Everywhere' campaign which on billboards I have seen in the past has no fine print but their printed collateral has some.

As a rule I always read the fine print and hunt out the T&C's, as you have stated most people do not read fine print. Hardly the fault of Xtra.

johnr
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#53345 23-Nov-2006 08:34
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I agree with Jama if people don't read the fine print thats there fault not the fault of Xtra



raytaylor

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  #53364 23-Nov-2006 13:22
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You both raise a good point.

In this case they have gone through the signup process, read the fineprint and if they dont agree then they have just wasted 20+ minutes of their time - just like getting into your car after seeing an advert on tv, driving to the shop and picking it up off the shelf and going up to the cashier and finding out when you get there that the product is completly different to what you saw on the advertismement.

I too believe that people should read the fineprint but the Fair Trading Act is there to stop traders from wasting their customers time in that way.
 
If I was shopping around for an internet plan I would look at the advertising on various websites to choose. I would only read the fineprint after selecting one that I wish to go for.
Likewise I wouldnt go to each of my 5 local big-box stores and look at their cheapest garden solar light - I would look in the catalogs or advertising that arrive in my mail box each week and only visit the one that I see is the best to suit me, since they advertise the solar lights almost every week.




Ray Taylor

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Spreadsheet for Comparing Electricity Plans Here


bradstewart
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  #53370 23-Nov-2006 13:37
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Xtra offer a service with conditions attached, you don't like the conditions ... don't sign up. Its rather simple. Theres no false advertising at all. It was made very clear that users would be subject to fair use and traffic management. Just look at http://www.xtraplans.co.nz and find the Go Large plan. Couldn't be any clearer if they were hitting over the head with.


grant_k
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  #53372 23-Nov-2006 13:49
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bradstewart:

Xtra offer a service with conditions attached, you don't like the conditions ... don't sign up. Its rather simple.


Absolutely!  I agree with you Brad (now there's a scary thought Tongue out).

There are plenty of other offerings available both from Xtra and other ISPs, so rather than wasting the ComCom's time with something which will achieve very little, it would be better to use their limited resources to focus on something that could actually benefit consumers like bringing down Mobile Phone Call Termination Rates.  Why should we still be paying 30+c per minute to call a mobile from a landline?

My 2c worth anyway...


juha
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  #53376 23-Nov-2006 14:37
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It's also a little late in the game, but I suppose one more isn't going to hurt.




 
 
 

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Downunder
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  #53382 23-Nov-2006 15:45
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i totally agree and tryed to complant to the ASA about the same things, admittedly with a little less research as you but with some clear points


and what did i get back from the ASA 




Thank you for your reply.
 

I advise that we have had similar complaints to yours, as you will see from Decisions 06/376 & 06/260 which are attached.

 

All information on our complaints process and advertising codes can be found on our website www.asa.co.nz

 

Kind regards

Advertising Standards Authority



in otherwords F OFF  yes after tralling through the asa site to find these rullings they were not upheld !! suprise suprise and the email couldent be bothered to tell me this i had to find it out for my self 


dont think my complant has even been loged against Telecom even after 3 emails to them ( well they have said they were ) 


best of luck as they dont seem to be intrested ... ahd any way what will they do slap telecoms hand and give them a $300 fine and tell them to pull tha ads, or change the wording a little ?


Any way keep complaning everyone i may try the Office of Fair trading as they may have more power to make Telecom improve the plans and price  rather than change the advertising of them.. 


johnr
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#53393 23-Nov-2006 16:52
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Downunder why don't you build your own network

tonyhughes
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#53395 23-Nov-2006 17:18
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raytaylor: The average user would expect between 1.5 to 8 mbps (megabits per second). The upstream (data traveling from the customers premises to the internet) speed is throttled / limited by Telecom to a maximum of 128 kbps or .128 mbps.

Since when does ADSL ever provide 8Mbps? & doesnt 128Kbps expressed in Mbps come out to .125Mbps (plus its very odd to express an amount of bandwidth less than 1Mbps still using "Mbps").

If the average kiwi wont read terms and conditions presented to them, thats their problem. I mean really... yout want the entire EULA or Ts&Cs for EVERY product in the world to be printed in full on every advert ever printed?

All those Ts&Cs affect someone, somewhere.

If its unleashed, does that mean I can use it to send millions of spam emails out? Nope, sure doesnt, and it probably has something to that effect in the Ts&Cs. Can I cry to the C.C. because they didnt put "You cannot use this service to send unsolicited commercial email" in their banner ad on xyz.com? Nope.

You are asking for Terms and COnditions to be MOVED by the sound of it. You accept they exist, you accept they are fair, but you want them displayed wherever the product name is advertised? What a joke.

This is not a pro-Xtra rant, this concept affects EVERY service with Ts&Cs, whether its a Taxi service with a condition that you pay-per-puke, or a mobile phone service that has roaming charges.







juha
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  #53396 23-Nov-2006 17:30
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It's not really a fine print issue as such. This is something that's been nutted out over a very long time. Let's say you buy a car, and for the sake of the argument, there are no speed limits on the motorway or congestion or whatever that'll stop you from going as fast as the car allows.

Now that car is advertised as being able to go up to 200kph. Buyer gets into the car, and finds that it doesn't hit more than 80kph. If that's the case, no amount of fine print will get the advertiser out of trouble.

This example doesn't contain all the detail necessary to make it fully applicable to broadband, but it illustrates the thinking behind the "fairness in advertising" principle.

I would say it applies to all ISPs however, including a the rather large multinational one that advertises its 3G broadband as providing up to 3.6Mbit/s downloads. The reasonable expectation from any customer is to be able to reach that speed at some point. If that's not possible, it shouldn't be advertised as such.




grant_k
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  #53397 23-Nov-2006 17:31
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tonyhughes: whether its a Taxi service with a condition that you pay-per-puke

ROFL !

Downunder
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  #53404 23-Nov-2006 19:27
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 johnr ? build my own network ? not sure what you are suggesting here  ? 

perhaps it is i go head to head in competition with a corp that made $754 million last year ......... don't think so thanks 


but i do expect a good service from them


Downunder
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  #53406 23-Nov-2006 19:41
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juha i agree

my complaint was


Ad's clearly states "ALL BroadBand Plans Are Max Speed"  but some plans have a throttle on upload speed 

making not all plans max speed only some.


shown below from xtra's web site


BASIC

Max/128Kbps


GO EXPRESS

Max/Max


how can 128Kbps be called max  ?



bradstewart
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  #53407 23-Nov-2006 19:43
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I dont see them calling 128 upload max.

that plan has max downstream/128 upstream. as opposed to max downstream/max upstream

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