Fault or No Fault?

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vexxxboy

4244 posts

Uber Geek

#109231 15-Sep-2012 12:10

i recently had VDSL connected to my home and it was syncing at just under 14000Kb, i had a master splitter installed so i knew that couldnt be the problem. After talking to Snap they said it was so bad, i wouldn't have to wait, as normal, to get Chorus out to see what the problem was.

Chorus duly arrived and after a few tests confirmed it wasn't my wiring in the house so he went out to the check the roadside connection and found that i had an extra 140 metres of wiring that shouldn't have been there.

It seems that i was put on the end of the line that went to a few houses, even though i was the first house on the line, so he took that out and he also said the the wiring was .4 in diameter and unless he changed every wire back to the cabinet i was stuck with ok speeds.

Well the bottom line is that after removing the 140 metres of extra line , my line attenuation went from 24 to 19dB and i immediately synced at just over 16000Kb and it now sits at 18200Kb.

But a week ago i received the bill from chorus, saying they found no fault and charging me . So im wondering what constitutes a fault in Chorus's view and why was this not a fault. I have appealed but im not sure if i have a case.

Common sense is not as common as you think.

blair003

557 posts

Ultimate Geek

#686417 15-Sep-2012 12:58

Pretty hard to say given the relatively minor improvements you experienced (24db to 19db attenuation). You had working-fine VDSL and now you have working-slightly-better VDSL. You can't read much into the sync rate as it changes over the first 10 days anyway.

I don't know how they classify faults with VDSL. I would ring up and argue it was a fault on the basis of the changes they made to see if you can get it reversed, but if they said no I would pay.

Given you were and are so far outside of what is meant to be acceptable attenuation for VDSL, I don't know how you got connected in the first place.

chevrolux

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#686460 15-Sep-2012 15:25

Yea the first thing I would say is why on earth VDSL was allowed to be connected in the first place. I personally wouldn't pay the extra for such a dismal speed.
That is apart from the point though...
Chorus obviously cut off the multiples that were running away from your property. This stops reflection and all of that. Multiples are a real killer for VDSL and even ADSL. Just think though, did they do anything at all inside? As soon as a tech looks at internal wiring the fault goes down as customers fault. If they didn't actually change anything internally you have the grounds to contest the cost. It is up to Chorus to maintain the network and therefore you shouldn't be charged for external faults.

sbiddle

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#686467 15-Sep-2012 15:55

To be honest you're lucky to have VDSL2 in the first place. Your line and sync are well outside spec - which is 10.8dB max attenuation.

vexxxboy

4244 posts

Uber Geek

#686477 15-Sep-2012 16:18

i know and its getting switched back to ADSL this week, but with him fixing the multiples i should be down to about 12 dB so it should be a lot better for ADSL. They touched nothing inside except to test the speed at the jack, then he went outside , looked at where it entered the house and said the cable in was ok and then went to the roadside connection . He was here about an hour and most of that he was on the phone because as he said this was his first VDSL connection he has looked at.

Common sense is not as common as you think.

cyril7

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#686515 15-Sep-2012 18:56

Hi, VDSL has a no fault policy of DS 15Mb/s, so if its that or better then there is no assumed fault. As others have said you should not have got VDLS2 in the first place even with the 140m removed.

So I think you will find it hard to wiggle out of that bill.

Cyril

gzt

17149 posts

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Lifetime subscriber

#686539 15-Sep-2012 21:13

Others above know far more about this than I do. Imho/e the usual advice given by ISPs when calling in a fault is a fault on your premises will cost you and faults out of your control will not.

The fault was outside your premises and not your responsibility so I am not sure on what basis you are being invoiced for the work.

My instinct - this is just a billing mistake and it will be corrected when you explain the situation and they talk to the tech to confirm your story.

DravidDavid

1907 posts

Uber Geek

#686558 15-Sep-2012 22:55

Did Chorus say that removing the cable from the loop on their network that they are responsible for would cost you? As far as I'm aware, even if the fault was at your jack-point, Chorus still have to advise you that it costs 270 dollars to repair it.

Plus I didn't think Chorus would bill you directly. Was the bill on-charged through your ISP?

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vexxxboy

4244 posts

Uber Geek

#686571 15-Sep-2012 23:34

No it was through my ISP, it just appeared on my statement,and even the chorus Tech said that the extra 140 metres was there mistake and by removing it i should get better speeds, so getting charged for the visit was a bit of a surprise .

Common sense is not as common as you think.

DravidDavid

1907 posts

Uber Geek

#686573 15-Sep-2012 23:41

vexxxboy: No it was through my ISP, it just appeared on my statement,and even the chorus Tech said that the extra 140 metres was there mistake and by removing it i should get better speeds, so getting charged for the visit was a bit of a surprise .

Chorus are responsible for everything right up to your ETP. You are not liable for the charge. Did your ISP read a script to you saying something like, "If its at your house, you are liable, if its on the telephone line its free."?

chevrolux

4962 posts

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#686633 16-Sep-2012 12:03

vexxxboy: No it was through my ISP, it just appeared on my statement,and even the chorus Tech said that the extra 140 metres was there mistake and by removing it i should get better speeds, so getting charged for the visit was a bit of a surprise .

Thats what i tend to think too. Chorus provisioned VDSL2 on a line that clearly wasnt suitable for it. But in provisioning they agree to maintain it. However, from what Cyril says, if the no fault level is 15Mb DS then maybe you have no leg to stand on.
Cutting multiples off a line happens often when the product being provisioned is something like HSNS which is a product designed to get higher speeds to customers who are further away from the exchange than most but this product also comes with a high SLA and also a high cost so it is fine for Chorus to do this sort of work on these higher level products but not so much on low end products like VDSL.

cyril7

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#686636 16-Sep-2012 12:36

from what Cyril says, if the no fault level is 15Mb DS then maybe you have no leg to stand on.

Both Telecomwholesale and Chorus have taken down the UBA/EUBA and VWS performance docs that used to be readily available.

However I am sure someone from the ISPs can confirm that VWS service has a 15Mb/s minimum performance expectation (infact I know it does) and that anything above that is considered acceptable, if you complain about anything when its above that there is a cost to the end user to make better.

Cyril

DravidDavid

1907 posts

Uber Geek

#686666 16-Sep-2012 14:03

cyril7:
from what Cyril says, if the no fault level is 15Mb DS then maybe you have no leg to stand on.

Both Telecomwholesale and Chorus have taken down the UBA/EUBA and VWS performance docs that used to be readily available.

However I am sure someone from the ISPs can confirm that VWS service has a 15Mb/s minimum performance expectation (infact I know it does) and that anything above that is considered acceptable, if you complain about anything when its above that there is a cost to the end user to make better.

Cyril

vexxboy stated in his first post that the performance of his line was sub 14Mb/s. If what you say is true then he was under the acceptable threshold stated by Chorus and it would be up to them to bring it up to standard, right? Considering VDSL shouldn't have been connected in the first place, I think vexxboy still has a case.

chevrolux

4962 posts

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Inactive user

#686703 16-Sep-2012 15:52

DravidDavid:
cyril7:
from what Cyril says, if the no fault level is 15Mb DS then maybe you have no leg to stand on.

Both Telecomwholesale and Chorus have taken down the UBA/EUBA and VWS performance docs that used to be readily available.

However I am sure someone from the ISPs can confirm that VWS service has a 15Mb/s minimum performance expectation (infact I know it does) and that anything above that is considered acceptable, if you complain about anything when its above that there is a cost to the end user to make better.

Cyril

vexxboy stated in his first post that the performance of his line was sub 14Mb/s. If what you say is true then he was under the acceptable threshold stated by Chorus and it would be up to them to bring it up to standard, right? Considering VDSL shouldn't have been connected in the first place, I think vexxboy still has a case.

Yea good point! Forgot he mentioned that in the first post.
My whole thinking is that Chorus made a mistake letting this line to be provisioned in the first place so now the onus is on them to do any maintenance required to make it perform to an acceptable standard.
I wonder if the ISAM's log connections so that they can look back to before the fault man was sent out so they can see what it sync'd at. I doubt they would but could be a possibility.

vexxxboy

4244 posts

Uber Geek

#686714 16-Sep-2012 16:33

After it was connected and it synced at under 14000 Kb, i rang Snap and they said that since it was under there 14000Kb threshold for VDSL, i wouldnt have to wait the 10 days to see if it would improve and would call Chorus out straight away and since chorus fixed the problem my speed has increased by 30-40% and my upload speed by 50% .

Common sense is not as common as you think.

DravidDavid

1907 posts

Uber Geek

#686740 16-Sep-2012 17:49

vexxxboy: After it was connected and it synced at under 14000 Kb, i rang Snap and they said that since it was under there 14000Kb threshold for VDSL, i wouldn't have to wait the 10 days to see if it would improve and would call Chorus out straight away and since chorus fixed the problem my speed has increased by 30-40% and my upload speed by 50% .

Did snap specifically mention on the phone that if the Chorus guy found that there was no fault on the line or if the fault was within the house you would be liable for the call-out fee?

If they did not, you could probably get your ISP to front the bill as they did not inform you that a charge may apply. That is how I understand it anyway.