Xtra - Blacklisted by SORBS again!!!!

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nunz

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#12377 14-Mar-2007 16:19

Xtra has been blacklisted by sorbs.net again. This means any customers using xtras smtp server (and remember those dysfunctional twats blocked port 25 to all other smtp servers by default) who are sending emails to recipients whose email server uses the sorbs black list (and we are not talking about a small black list server either) will have their emails rejected.

This may or may not be limited to one or all xtra smtp servers but it is happening.

In NZ this means emails to orcon and maxnet are both being denied. I haven't bothered figuring out who else this affects.

Xtra were first listed in Nov last year, got off the list and then let their staff send spam from internal (ie there's something coming email) and failed to do anything about it when told about it. Sorbs blacklisted them Mar 3rd (US time) and Xtra failed to do anything about it. Thus xtra is now blacklisted again.

Xtras advanced support team (CFT, CTS .. whatever acronym they are using) know about it but are not issuing an advisory as they don't want word getting out. They had known about it for 48 hours on Monday. Considering this kind of thing is normally resolved within 12-24 the question had to be why has it taken over 48 and why is it not fixed? They are trying to catch the internal spammers or something like that ( well duh!!! i sent you an email on the 27th of Feb telling you what PC and at what time and what server it came out of .. what more do you need?) and don't seem to be giving a rats rectum for their poor long suffering customers.

I will be requesting compensation (and I don't just mean a refund either) on behalf of my business and customers for the inconvenience lost productivity and lost income this is causing.

Xtra ... you guys suck the big one. I am not a swearing man but you sons of a retarded sloth are pushing all my buttons right to the limit.

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#63713 14-Mar-2007 16:24

xtra's stpidity dosent surprises me anymore.....

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#63723 14-Mar-2007 17:43

There is plenty of documentation on port 25 filtering out there. Plenty of warnings.
If you need to use port 25 - opt out. How difficult is that?
Port 25 filtering has been adapted by various ISP's over the world as a means of trying to reduce spam.

As for the sorbs.net blacklist, perhaps you could ask Maxnet to whitelist Xtras domain? They are the ones rejecting the mail solely on the blacklist. Being blacklisted does happen despite it being quite a bad thing and has happened to many mail servers (including my own)

As for the swearing - it does nothing to further your cause.

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#63727 14-Mar-2007 18:39

cokemaster: There is plenty of documentation on port 25 filtering out there. Plenty of warnings.
If you need to use port 25 - opt out. How difficult is that?
Port 25 filtering has been adapted by various ISP's over the world as a means of trying to reduce spam.

I have to disagree - there were no warnings. As an Xtra customer I received no warnings. As Xtra customers my clients received no warnings. As IT supporters of Xtra customers my friends received no warnings and neither did their customers. Considering we hold sway over 50 plus sites in Chch alone I would have expected at least one email, a letter, a count down, multiple warnngs .. before someone killed all outbound traffic from mail servers we manage.

Besides which, the silly sods seem to have dropped the exclusions we got, off at least one site we manage in the last week. More work and hassle for the client and for us with no compensation from Xtra, our Limited ISP.

Port 25 filtering is hardly best practice. Most SMTP have one other port open by default ( as I am sure you know) and if Xtra cannot handle the load as it was, the last thing they should be doing is forcing its customers to go through them and creating more of a minefield of stuff ups by forcing us to register with them. BTW - Their 'you must answer zeese questions or else...' routine they put you through to get that done was also a joke.

Xtra: So .. Jo Spammer .. do you solemnly swear to not spam, wholly desist from spamming, until with your ISP you part? "
Jo Spammer - I do.

Then there were also totally bogus ( non-optional) questions about what mail server and software you used , and half the answers couldn't make it onto their sheet as their sheet was too limited. As an example, their form didn't recognise Lotus Domino as a mail server ... I mean .. hello .. its only got 155 million users and outsells or equally sells alongside exchange in user volumes. Then came the operating system questions that didn't handle the version of Linux we used, the anti vurus we used was also unknown, and our IP Cop / Smoothwall firewall was totally unheard of. Bureaucratic bollocks to no good purpose. We lied so we could get past the form and let the poor guy who had to fill it our get something written down.

cokemaster:
As for the sorbs.net blacklist, perhaps you could ask Maxnet to whitelist Xtras domain? They are the ones rejecting the mail solely on the blacklist. Being blacklisted does happen despite it being quite a bad thing and has happened to many mail servers (including my own)

Yep .. thats true, but it is not just Maxnet and Orcon .. it is international. Also sorbs didn't put them there by accident. They deserve to be there .. they have been sending out spam, they do allow spam and they are not doing anything to help themselves or their clients in this circumstance. Unfortunately that leaves us customers in the poop. Was it spam? Yep .. it was un-solicited, there were multiples of them, they were addressed to email addresses I don't have in my domain and they were advertising for commercial gain with no opt out options on the email.

cokemaster:

As for the swearing - it does nothing to further your cause.

Like I said

nunz:I am not a swearing man but you sons of a retarded sloth are pushing all my buttons right to the limit.

I am not ... but it is tempting.

After spending 80 hours over the last four months and countless hours every week trying to head butt my way through the densely packed non-responsiveness of (warning oxymoron ahead) the Xtra Help Desk, swearing at least lowers my blood pressure. Swearing at Xtra doesn't help of course, the poor chained souls at the help desk have been emasculated by higher ups at Xtra (they don't even have ping for crying out loud) and it is not their fault, but even Jesus lost his rag occasionally and he didn't have to deal with Xtra. honestly I think Ghandi would have taken up a baseball bat and visted Teresa G had he had to deal with them.

But, as I said, as a (theoretically / trying really hard not to) non swearing man I have been pushed close to the limit .... but not over it (at least on this forum ).. :-) however that doesn't preclude me adding to our English language by exercising that most kiwi of traits, the colourful, and creative description. Xtra has reduced our current paucity in that area substantially. :D

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#63738 14-Mar-2007 20:23

Without sounding like a zealot or a troll - think about it:

If an major ISP enforces a blacklist (ie. rejecting smtp server connections) solely on a dns blacklist - they get blamed.

If an major ISP is on one of these blacklists (often because of spam viruses spamming rather than the ISP itself) - they get blamed.

A win win for everyone involved.

Blocking the most common port is a way to try and reduce spam - its not going to stop it, but its going to cause a bit of a set back for the spam viri already out there running their own smtp servers on port 25. Yes they could always use other ports (which chances are, they are going to do that if they haven't already) or they'll tunnel the spam through the ISPs mail server.

When it goes through that mail server - it becomes a lot easier to track down.

I can't see spam going away - its just a never ending arms race which they'll always win in one form or the other.

While its disappointing that you didn't get any notification - I must say that I got 3 notifications for each account I had, which warned me and gave me plenty of time to adapt/take precautions.

CTS has always been reasonably good for me (note that they do have narrow support ranges, particularly with broadband) with prompt responses (though I have been accused of being biased) and I know of others who have had prompt responses too. Perhaps next time you experience poor service you should lodge a complaint with a manager there? Being calm and not ranting at them for stuff goes a long way as the person on the other end will be able to help you rather than just listening to the abuse which just wastes both peoples times.

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#63740 14-Mar-2007 20:37

nunz: I will be requesting compensation (and I don't just mean a refund either) on behalf of my business and customers for the inconvenience lost productivity and lost income this is causing.

I agree with mos of the things you said in your original post, but you should really read your terms and conditions before making statements like the above...

If your Windows Server OS install bites the dust, do you knock down Microsofts door for 'compensation' ?

If your business and your customers are so reliant on email for productivity and income, why not engage the part of your business continuity plan that covers what happens when mail goes down? (e.g. paying a small amount to have a backup provider that doesnt rely on your usual providers networks at all, or having a basic in-house solution, or whatever it is you have planned in advance for.)

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#63744 14-Mar-2007 21:11

Just a few things... first, Xtra on SORBS was posted before by *cough* me. :)

Second, unlike well-run DNSbls, SORBS is a huge PITA as it lists IP blocks for no apparent reason. This begs the question why anyone would use it, like Telecom and Microsoft do, plus other providers. If anyone rejects on the basis of a SORBS listing, call up said provider and tell them it's a borderline stupid thing to do, as the chances of false positives are exceedingly high. My ISP's entire netblock was listed by SORBS for a while as being "dial-up IP space". Well, no, it wasn't.

Third, solving the spam issue by breaking the Internet through port 25 blocking doesn't work. It has made zero difference to spam volumes and should be considered harmful in general.

Fourth, email is important to people and businesses. If your ISP fails to understand that, you're with the wrong provider. Likewise, relying on el-cheapo freemail or the email that came with your dial-up account for business is a spectacularly bad idea. Get a domain registered, and shop around for a good and reliable email service with a service level agreement that gives you leverage in case things go wrong.

Juha

nunz

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#63764 15-Mar-2007 00:09

tonyhughes:
nunz: I will be requesting compensation (and I don't just mean a refund either) on behalf of my business and customers for the inconvenience lost productivity and lost income this is causing.

I agree with mos of the things you said in your original post, but you should really read your terms and conditions before making statements like the above...

If your Windows Server OS install bites the dust, do you knock down Microsofts door for 'compensation' ?

If your business and your customers are so reliant on email for productivity and income, why not engage the part of your business continuity plan that covers what happens when mail goes down? (e.g. paying a small amount to have a backup provider that doesnt rely on your usual providers networks at all, or having a basic in-house solution, or whatever it is you have planned in advance for.)

Hi Tony,

If my windows install bites the dust I either get my hardware replaced under warranty or rebuild it myself as i built it in the first place. If my customers installs collapse I am held liable. That's my job.

However the problems I am having with Xtra are not the result of mistakes or bad luck. Instead they are the result of incompetence and bad management.

You say if my business is so reliant .... However to use another provider I have to force Xtra to let me send email via another provider. That is the impact of port 25 blocking. When Xtra unblocks the port and then reblocks it it suffs up my continuity plan ... and yes they have done that again.

Xtra are less worried about virii in many ways. At the hight of the virii attacks port 443 / 445 were swamped. They didn't give a toss as I reported a number of virused computers on the xtra domain port scanning and attacking my clients systems. Xtra cared not one jot.

I am an IT professional. I look after a number of sites. Many of my friends are the same. Our experience of Xtra is one of constant frustration and total inability to provide decent continuity to our clients. Xtra force people through their servers and are performing port blocking and control. They do not supply the basic speeds and connectivity promised and when problems are rported they fail to fix them. Xtra have failed to invest the necessary finances into our physical infrastructure (we are ranked 41 out of 42 in the OECD on a per capita investment in IT) Only Mexico spends less than us. Xtra were warned years ago by Alcatel that if they increase their speed the systems wouldn't handle it and 64% of people would have degraded broadband performce. Go large succeeded in doing that.

Exchanges with NAS ports and RDNS completely fouled up are not fixed, breaks in lines are not fixed and now they are not even acknowledging that they are having trouble providing a basic smtpo service as they have spammed the heck out of people and failed to respond to one of the worlds larger black lists and correct the issues. Failure to inform their customers or put a notification on their systems is denial and very very very bad practice. It is a lie by Xtra.

If MS breaks down that is one thing. It is part of the problems with software. However when a money grubbing, monopolistic, foreign owned corporate is screwing with basic business needs that is another thing all together.

There is only one way Xtra will listen and that is when it hits them where it hurts, ie in the wallet.

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nunz

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#63766 15-Mar-2007 00:35

cokemaster: Without sounding like a zealot or a troll - think about it:

....When it goes through that mail server - it becomes a lot easier to track down.

But only if Xtra are prepared to help you track it down.So far there have been no responses or help with that at any time. Talking to them is a waste of breath and time. I reported some of thee spam coming out of their systems in Mid Feb. I have sent emails to all the areas I am meant to send them to, contacted the help desk, talked to who ever and nothing has been done. Their response has been zip, zero, nada, nothing .. a big fat total ignore and silence.

While its disappointing that you didn't get any notification - I must say that I got 3 notifications for each account I had, which warned me and gave me plenty of time to adapt/take precautions.

CTS has always been reasonably good for me (note that they do have narrow support ranges, particularly with broadband) with prompt responses (though I have been accused of being biased) and I know of others who have had prompt responses too. Perhaps next time you experience poor service you should lodge a complaint with a manager there? Being calm and not ranting at them for stuff goes a long way as the person on the other end will be able to help you rather than just listening to the abuse which just wastes both peoples times.

I haven't been abusing people!!! Please note I said They were slowly driving me towards that. PLease also note the humour in my descriptions of them.

Reporting to managers is a waste of time.
I reported the Bishopdale exchange had its NAS ports or RDNS was totally stuffed up four and a half months ago. I re-reported it. I talked to CTS, I talked to the managers at CTS. I tracked down and talked to the person in charge of customer liaisons and PR. Again their repsonse ... nothing. They agreed there was a problem. They promised to fix it. They promised phone calls back. What did I get? Nada. I eventually crawled my way up to the level of NZ Manager for Xtra Support. I had to phone the person several times and keep on their back to finally get any result. It took four and half months to fix something that affected all users on that exchange., I lost 80 productive hours of work as the connections were so flaky. My clients lost emails and connectivity.

I have been calm .. please note .. I said is is slowly driving me towards swearing. I never said I have been swearing at anybody. I know that the poor peple at the front desk can do absolutely nothing. I have been calm and reasoned. I have been firmly assertive. I have bluntly told them (managers) that the effects of the lousy service is likely to have over 500k of revenue a year disappear down the tubes for them . They could care less.

I have a hands free phone installed so I can get through the several hours of calls a week I have had to go through. Xtra suck!! End of story. You may have had a good run with them but I have had nothing but grief. My personal home line ADSL is now with slingshot. After 18 months experiencing over 19 disconnections per three hours I gave up on them. When naked DSL comes in my office will switch to a voda phone 0800 number and I will be rid of any payments to Xtra. Until then it looks like Xtra and I are stuck with each other.

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#63776 15-Mar-2007 08:02

But only if Xtra are prepared to help you track it down.

Mail it to the regular security@xtra.co.nz and you should get a response from it.

I reported the Bishopdale exchange had its NAS ports

Anything DSL/bb related should go through to the broadband helpdesk / advanced bb rather than CTS. CTS doesn't do DSL technologies so they would need to refer to those helpdesks anyway...

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bt57

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#63811 15-Mar-2007 14:28

nunz:
cokemaster: Without sounding like a zealot or a troll - think about it:

....When it goes through that mail server - it becomes a lot easier to track down.

But only if Xtra are prepared to help you track it down.So far there have been no responses or help with that at any time. Talking to them is a waste of breath and time. I reported some of thee spam coming out of their systems in Mid Feb. I have sent emails to all the areas I am meant to send them to, contacted the help desk, talked to who ever and nothing has been done. Their response has been zip, zero, nada, nothing .. a big fat total ignore and silence.

While its disappointing that you didn't get any notification - I must say that I got 3 notifications for each account I had, which warned me and gave me plenty of time to adapt/take precautions.

CTS has always been reasonably good for me (note that they do have narrow support ranges, particularly with broadband) with prompt responses (though I have been accused of being biased) and I know of others who have had prompt responses too. Perhaps next time you experience poor service you should lodge a complaint with a manager there? Being calm and not ranting at them for stuff goes a long way as the person on the other end will be able to help you rather than just listening to the abuse which just wastes both peoples times.

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#63813 15-Mar-2007 14:42

bt57: Golly, you sound like a bitter little man, remind us all why you a still with xtra? I'd be shopping around............

yeah I'd have to agree. I too am an IT professional and with the number of service providers out there for choice, I wouldn't be doing my job to a satisfactory level if I continued to lump my customers with the ongoing frustrations that you are obviously experiencing with Xtra.

Spending 80 + hours talking with the Xtra help desk?? Good God man, do your clients a favour and change providers!

nunz

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#63957 16-Mar-2007 15:13

cokemaster:
But only if Xtra are prepared to help you track it down.

Mail it to the regular security@xtra.co.nz and you should get a response from it.

Hahahahahahahaha bonk!! .Yeah right :-) Their email is a big black hole I have written to security, CTS, abuse, spamreport, help desk ... I have used the forms on the site and sent emails to every address I have been told to send them to.

After five emails got bounced back as the email address shown on the web site doesn't work or the email has disappeared into oblivion I have tried calling their help desk. CTS aren't interested. Helpdesk couldn't help. I had previously emailed security .. no reply. It is a nice theory but it just doesn't get responded to.

Thanks for the email address but I had been there and done that and it was not much help.

cokemaster:
But only if Xtra are prepared to help you track it down.

Mail it to the regular security@xtra.co.nz and you should get a response from it.

I reported the Bishopdale exchange had its NAS ports

Anything DSL/bb related should go through to the broadband helpdesk / advanced bb rather than CTS. CTS doesn't do DSL technologies so they would need to refer to those helpdesks anyway...

I know .. It got escalated to their way far high almighty specialist team (or some other acronym). It got escalated all the way to the NZ Manager In charge of help desk support. Even when it got that high I had to keep nagging for another month to keep getting it pushed through until something was done.

My bottom line and final word is this:
Xtra don't respond.
Xtra don't care.
Xtra do send spam
Xtra were warned of the consequences of sending spam
Xtra did nothing
Xtra got blacklisted
Xtra still did not respond in a timely manner

Pure and simple. Xtra's service sucks. Unfortunately their lack of service affects all ISPs that are stuck with them as a whole saler of lines, exchanges and connectivity.

My reason for posting this thread was so people who were getting mail bounced by Xtra owing to their activities at least had some notice it was happening , as after all Xtra still haven't reported it as far as I can see.

nunz

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#63958 16-Mar-2007 15:20

bcourtney:

yeah I'd have to agree. I too am an IT professional and with the number of service providers out there for choice, I wouldn't be doing my job to a satisfactory level if I continued to lump my customers with the ongoing frustrations that you are obviously experiencing with Xtra.

Spending 80 + hours talking with the Xtra help desk?? Good God man, do your clients a favour and change providers!

You missed the point of the 80 hours on one problem - That problem couldn't be resolved by anyone else. It was Xtras switch / exchange. Xtra was the only one could fix it. Xtra were also affecting ihug, telstra and every other ISP going through that exchange.

And your suggestion for a better provider is?
    Paradise - Last week after 2.5 hours on phone waiting for help desk to respond I finally got through.

    IHUG - 2 days plus delay in emails getting through in Nov last year.   - Lets not talk about help desk delays

    Telstra Saturn - not in my area except as Xtra resellers - Their help desk response is generally to blame xtra for delays and problems

    CaveRock, Orcon, Maxnet ... ? Great ISPs in general but try to sell the idea of using a little company to a corporate who spend 30k plus a month on telecommunications

    Slingshot - Not strong enough in chch and people here seem less than impressed with their service.

I'm running out of options .. who would you suggest?

barf

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#63961 16-Mar-2007 15:23

none of my clients on Xtra are blocked by SORBS. do these customers of yours have static IPs?

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#63964 16-Mar-2007 15:38

nunz:
Spending 80 + hours talking with the Xtra help desk?? Good God man, do your clients a favour and change providers!

Those other providers can esclate issues if nessecary. If you are referring to dslams - then its Telecoms, not Xtras.

Xtra don't respond.
Xtra don't care.
Xtra do send spam
Xtra were warned of the consequences of sending spam
Xtra did nothing
Xtra got blacklisted
Xtra still did not respond in a timely manner

You still haven't told us, how you reached the conclusion that Xtra doesn't care about being blacklisted. Its a pain in the behind when you get blacklisted and often you are at the mercy of the blacklist to get your IP/servers removed from it. Of course it is also the choice of the recieving ISP to decline SMTP connections based on a single blacklist.

Your claims that Xtras 'spamming' got them blacklisted are quite interesting... care backing this up with proof that they were spamming or is this one of these trolling claims? It is most likely from some computer that got infected with a viruses/trojan that spams, which happens to use the ISP mail server addresses.

Of course, if you could provide proof of them sending out spam to the SORBs honeypot and SORBs supposely sending a warning back, that must mean you work for Telecom... or for Sorbs. Otherwise it is just guesswork/fud. Yes they are aware of the issue and knowing how quickly SORBs remove entries from blacklists - the ball is in their court.

Just out of interest - mind listing those ticket numbers they woul have assigned you for every call? Surely after 80 hours of calling you must have at least one of those floating aroun.

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