Fibre and copper issue

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brickviking

30 posts

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#216614 4-Jul-2017 22:17

Our place in Christchurch recently got rebuilt and we get to move back in at the end of this week. Yay. Problem is, now I have to jack up an install of internet to my new place, but I'm striking some issues from the ISP, whom I'm not going to identify.

Previously (before the house was pulled down for rebuilding) we were on DSL (at 13mbps) and had a monitored alarm. We've been on fibre at temporary premises for the past ten months, and it's been fantastic. The only negative has meant I have to leave the modem powered up overnight as it provides the phone circuit, as there's no copper here at the temporary premises.

1) I want to put the phone back onto copper at the new premises:
   a) it's more likely that a copper circuit will remain live in the event of a major emergency (i.e. earthquake).
   b) If I'm not at home, or I'm asleep, I want to be able to turn off my modem without the phone also being deactivated.
   c) If the power goes out, I don't want to lose the phone circuit.

2) I have an alarm, and I want it to be monitored:
a) the ISP suggests not connecting it to the internet, due to a power-out rendering the alarm mute.
b) this implies that I connect the alarm to copper so it can still work even when the power's off, at least for a while.

3) I want to have fibre installed at my premises (Enable is the provider in our street):
a) because the speed is faster and not as dependent on distance to the exchange or green streetbox.
b) I already have a fibre modem.

4) The ISP can't do what I've asked for:
   a) they can provide copper+DSL, but not voice-only copper.
   b) They can provide fibre, but not at the same time as a copper or copper+DSL install. It's either one or the other.
   c) I won't need DSL if I get fibre installed.
   d) If I want an alarm monitored over copper, my only option appears to be to take up a DSL contract that I don't want and forego the fibre.

The laugh is, if I want fibre, I've been told that it'll take up to five weeks after the 9th July to get it provisioned, which means I won't be able to see all the fine reaction to this thread until I get back online. Even if I go with a copper+DSL install, that'll still take between five and ten working days (more acceptable, but still a little slow). Someone suggested I try for an escalation on medical grounds, but I don't have a medical alarm so they turned me down even though my wife is wheelchair-bound.

Are there other options I may have missed? Does this seem fair, that someone with a monitored alarm is coerced into downgrading their internet experience unless they turn the alarm into an internet monitored alarm, and risk the chance of powerouts killing the alarm? Am I just an edge case? The last time I was an edge case, it required that Chorus looked a bit further into the connection I had at the time.

(Post 27)

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1647 posts

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#1812952 4-Jul-2017 22:28

No one is stopping you buying fibre from company A and copper landline from company B.

There are other options for you to consider:

-UPS battery for your fibre phone.

-GSM module for your alarm

richms

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#1812954 4-Jul-2017 22:30

Is it fair that they keep a legacy network running for people that do not want to upgrade their equipment?

Last I checked, spark would still sell copper phone only service at ~$50 a month if requested. There is regretably no current plans to axe the copper network so you should be good for a while on that.

Richard rich.ms

sbiddle

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#1812962 4-Jul-2017 22:38

brickviking

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#1812971 4-Jul-2017 23:05

In the event of a power-out of significant length especially after an earthquake, I'm not aware of fibre being live, so it would be pointless me powering up a ONT, modem and phone with a UPS if nothing's listening on the other end or there's a break in the fibre. Copper is usually powered by the exchange batteries/generators for a while, and is only prone to line severance or shorting. In the 2011 aftermath, I was more often able to get a phonecall through on copper than on cellphone.

I was also advised that people really really badly want to axe the copper network altogether by 2020 or 2025 (I'm not sure which applies), leaving us no option but fibre. It's possibly why the ISPs I've approached aren't considering copper without some form of broadband being bundled, though I hadn't approached Spark due to its cost. While I understand the rush to go ever faster, I've learned that sometimes has to be tempered with something that is quicker to put up in an interim position.

Regarding the GSM module, I may well have to check that out with the alarm company I want to sign up with. I wasn't aware of its name until now.

(Post 28)

Lorenceo

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#1812972 4-Jul-2017 23:07

Why would you not leave your modem on at all times, regardless of it being used for VoIP?

Keep in mind that your service provider has to pay the relevant wholesale company for copper or fibre service to an address. Copper and fibre are treated and billed separately by the wholesalers, even if the same wholesaler happens to provide both fibre and copper in a given area.

Edit: If another seismic event were to occur that took out a fibre cable, it'd likely also take out the copper line as well. Regarding power, the fibre equipment in the exchanges is powered by backup batteries and generators, the same as the copper equipment.

kyhwana2

2566 posts

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#1812974 4-Jul-2017 23:24

Note that for fibre installs the ONT (The fibre "modem") is meant to be kept where it's installed, you don't take it with you if you move.

As Biddle has suggested, get a POTS landline from Spark and go with a fibre RSP of your choice.

I'm not sure how much ISPs/LFP's monitor ONT statuses, but you shouldn't need to turn it off for any reason?

richms

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#1812976 4-Jul-2017 23:37

Fiber comes from the same generator backed up exchange that copper does. Infact there is a good chance that the copper phone comes from gear in a cabinet now, Chch was one of the places they rushed install of that because of the EQ damage to the legacy copper networks, was faster to get phones working again from the cabinet where DSL came from then to fix up cables back to the exchange, so a good chance that so long as you keep the ONT powered up, that the phone from it would outlast the battery at the cabinet.

Either case is trusting your alarm monitoring to an external cable to the premisis, which is the weak point, not a power outage etc, and cellular monitoring will get around that, and most alarm companies are able to provide now. Cost of that over landline monitoring is usually less than the cost of any landline service.

Richard rich.ms

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lxsw20

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#1812991 5-Jul-2017 01:23

Go with a provider that offers phone line via the ONT. (Such as Spark) Then turn the router off at night but leave the ONT on.

sbiddle

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#1812998 5-Jul-2017 02:36

It's also worth noting that the copper PSTN will cease to exist in it's current form in a little over a year anyway. "Copper" phone services for many people are VoIP based from the ISAM-V card in the exchange or cabinet, and Spark will start migrating people across from the NEAX's to these in a little over a year based on current plans.

While you can very easily get what you want now you need to accept that will no longer be the case going forward. Low speed devices such as alarms ultimately need to be migrated to Ethernet or 3G based.

DarthKermit

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#1813001 5-Jul-2017 02:48

If there was another earthquake as bad as the 2011 event again, any alarm monitored or not probably won't be of much help in protecting your property. Assuming the communications networks are still working, there's no guarantee the security company could do anything about it.

brickviking

30 posts

Geek

#1855739 31-Aug-2017 10:15

Further to my previous question (honest, this isn't necrodancing, it's a status update!) is an explanation of what actually happened. And I now feel I can identify the players.

(1) I got fibre installed (Enable). Took ten days all up, rather than the provisional five weeks quote by Slingshot. Enable were very nice, even turning up on a Friday that was best described as "deluge". That did surprise me, as later on several areas in the city were flooded.

(2) I went with a cellular module for the alarm company. The cost of the plan includes a small fee per month for the SIM card in the module. It seems to work fine so far, so I've now got no real issues except if celltowers go down.

(3) I now have 92 mbit to one computer (speedtest.net results) and 45 mbit to another computer in the same network, I'm concluding it's simply age of the second computer (it dates from 2008). So yes, well within the tolerances of the network. The only way I'd get anything faster is to upgrade the 100 mbit switch I got back in 2000-ish, the second computer, and the plan I signed up to. And pay the significantly higher cost (another $45 for up to 900mb/500mbit). Still, I'm well happy with 100/20.

Cheers to all.

(Post 29)

webwat

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#1858606 5-Sep-2017 01:05

brickviking:

In the event of a power-out of significant length especially after an earthquake, I'm not aware of fibre being live, so it would be pointless me powering up a ONT, modem and phone with a UPS if nothing's listening on the other end or there's a break in the fibre. Copper is usually powered by the exchange batteries/generators for a while, and is only prone to line severance or shorting. In the 2011 aftermath, I was more often able to get a phonecall through on copper than on cellphone.

I was also advised that people really really badly want to axe the copper network altogether by 2020 or 2025 (I'm not sure which applies), leaving us no option but fibre. It's possibly why the ISPs I've approached aren't considering copper without some form of broadband being bundled, though I hadn't approached Spark due to its cost. While I understand the rush to go ever faster, I've learned that sometimes has to be tempered with something that is quicker to put up in an interim position.

Regarding the GSM module, I may well have to check that out with the alarm company I want to sign up with. I wasn't aware of its name until now.

(Post 28)

Cell towers need power out in the field, not all of them have dedicated generators when power went out after the earthquakes the cellular companies had to run around with portable generators. With fibre you don't have to worry about water shorting the cables but you do need your own battery backup so ask your alarm guys whether they have a system to power both the alarm and the internet, some of them do now. That is obviously an advantage if you have a copper line available.

Time to find a new industry!

webwat

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#1861393 9-Sep-2017 17:31

Just read original post again. Your ISP seems to not realise that its actually possible to power your internet with a UPS that contains a backup battery! Quite funny if it didnt imply that they are giving lots of other users bad information.

Time to find a new industry!

pctek

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#1864672 13-Sep-2017 18:36

The only negative has meant I have to leave the modem powered up overnight as it provides the phone circuit, as there's no copper here at the temporary premises.

What? Why? My phone plugs into the ONT nor the modem.

Lorenceo

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#1864675 13-Sep-2017 18:46

Not every ISP uses the ATA ports on the ONT for phone service.

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