Do master filters die?

Forums › New Zealand Broadband › Do master filters die?

nzkc

1571 posts

Uber Geek

#248868 13-Apr-2019 12:51

So this weekend I'm considering, strongly, about hacking into my house wiring to see if I can improve my VDSL as fibre is at least a month away and I'm getting quite frequent disconnections. Way too many!

I used to get quite regular sync speeds of around 40Mb down. However lately its around 15Mb down - strangely up has been pretty consistent currently at around 13Mb up.

Wiring hasnt changed but stats suggest a lot more noise.

As mentioned I'm looking at "hacking" around in the wiring. At present I have a master filter installed even though I have no POTS. I'm with 2 degrees so unlike Spark I dont think they have basic POTS (as I saw in another discussion) which would warrant always having a master filter I'm curious as to whether the filters could, over time, die or become unstable?

I'm also wondering if my Fritzbox 7390 is starting to go. I've had these for quite a while - cant actually remember when I got VDSL installed - was as soon as it was available to me (I'm up on the Hibiscus Coast).

In the first instance I'm considering soldering the wires rather than using those button joins (will this likely improve things?). Before doing this I'd run out and get a master filter if there's a good chance its past its best before date! Or, as there's no POTS, could I bypass the filter entirely...by removing it? Would it be worth testing removing the filter?

So TLDR:

Is it worth replacing the master filter?
Do I even need one with no POTS?
Will soldering connections improve things over the button connectors (sorry dont know their proper name)?

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2829 posts

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Subscriber

#2216463 13-Apr-2019 12:56

You probs wanna check the wiring.

Follow this thread for a good checklist of things you need to do/check...

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=49&topicid=105744

nzkc

1571 posts

Uber Geek

#2216464 13-Apr-2019 13:00

Yeah...I know. I'm trying to sort out the wiring! And if I'm gonna make changes I might as well do the best. I can run a new line to modem (it'll be a PITA but hey...might as well do it properly). My questions (especially in the TLDR) still apply though.

decibel

315 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2216478 13-Apr-2019 13:24

If you have no POTS, (of any description) then you don't need a filter.

Linux

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#2216480 13-Apr-2019 13:30

decibel:

If you have no POTS, (of any description) then you don't need a filter.

Correct no home phone then lose the master filter and just have a master VDSL jack point

nzkc

1571 posts

Uber Geek

#2216482 13-Apr-2019 13:36

Cool. I'll try removing that as one of the first steps along with soldering the joins as I'm expecting that'll provide better connections than the button connectors. My soldering skills arent too bad btw! I also have heatshrink tubing to go over the joins and protect them.

BMarquis

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Chorus

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#2216653 13-Apr-2019 19:57

Linux:
decibel:

If you have no POTS, (of any description) then you don't need a filter.

Correct no home phone then lose the master filter and just have a master VDSL jack point

I’d caveat this with as long as you have a direct cable from ETP to modem. As high of a twist as possible, CAT5E minimum. You want absolutely no other copper cabling/stubs.
It’s not just about filtering out POTS frequencies.

I know this is what you meant by a master VDSL jack point, just want to make it abundantly clear.

hio77

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Lizard Networks

#2216655 13-Apr-2019 20:06

soldering is a tad triggering...

To answer the thread title though, Yes they do die. I've killed 2.

When they die, they are pretty random.

Even myself, as good as i am at spotting a fault and with all the data i monitor on my lines, the Filter was the last thing on my list.

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Tracer

343 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2216956 14-Apr-2019 14:02

Don't solder, get the the little round gel-filled press-down splicing things.

Tracer

343 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2216957 14-Apr-2019 14:08

Tracer:

Don't solder, get the the little round gel-filled press-down splicing things.

Like https://www.cabac.com.au/products/lugs-links-and-terminals/terminals/splice-connectors/cabac-splices/10058505

dc2daylight

87 posts

Master Geek

#2216964 14-Apr-2019 14:54

Tracer:
Tracer:

Don't solder, get the the little round gel-filled press-down splicing things.

Like https://www.cabac.com.au/products/lugs-links-and-terminals/terminals/splice-connectors/cabac-splices/10058505

Oh you mean the little things that phone techs use because they are a) really quick to make a join with and b) keep out moisture ingress with the gel? I forget the name... The trouble with these is that they were patented and designed in the era when ADSL was only in the research phase, and dialup and analogue copper phonelines to linecards was the norm. Yet still they are the "industry standard" for the reasons I gave in my first sentence.

Much like punchdown connectors on phone jacks the surface area covered by them is minimal, which would explain why every time I've swapped these out for standard electrical connector blocks made from copper and rated for 240Vac, I've always had an additional 2-5 Mbps of sync over ADSL2+.

I tried soldering the bell wire (very old solid copper stuff) on the last place I was renting with the landlords permission, and got worse speed than with the Scotchlock connectors/"press-down splicing things", where it met the cat5 cable going in to the tiny place and it's two phone jacks... When I then tried my theory of a connector block being better for surface contact area, and to take advantage of the surface electrical gradient transfer tendency via electrons I read about online, I got the best ever connection speed from the old speedtouch modem I was using at the time. It jumped from about 8Mbps to 11Mbps and never dropped, with zero errors.

At a family owned property recently in Northland which we ported to another ISP from ADSL1 to VDSL (vodafone to voyager), I removed the inline splitter, temporarily wired in a master splitter to see if it would help with rejection of noise and inducted RF interference and got a good sync speed. But the speed was even faster and more stable without the splitter, and without Scotchlocks, just carefully clamped down in a standard connector block. The line in to the house from the cabinet is twisted pair - standard cat 5 from what I recall. The place was built less than 10 years ago.

Tip: Be careful in how tightly you screw down the copper core of the twisted pair, or else you can easily crush or totally break the tiny diameter of copper in the centre. Mechanically it may be good to anchor it in place with cable ties, to take strain off the cores, and if you think moisture will be an issue - pump some epoxy sealer around any metallic parts of the connector block exposed to the air.

decibel

315 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2217049 14-Apr-2019 18:36

These are better - soldering is a thing of the past.

Aredwood

3885 posts

Uber Geek

#2217125 14-Apr-2019 23:20

A vote in favor of soldering from me. But that is because I always have a soldering iron available. While for me to use any type of crimp connector, will mean having to go to Jaycar or the electrical wholesaler to buy them.

With any type of mechanical join, cleanliness is essential. Along with keeping out moisture. Because otherwise, one surface will become oxidized. And a metal oxide in contact with non oxidized metal, will behave as a diode if you pass AC signals through it. And if you pass multiple different AC signals through a diode. The diode will mix them together and cause all sorts of problems.

chevrolux

4962 posts

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#2217182 15-Apr-2019 08:27

1. As others have said, yep they can definitely die. Maybe it's worth replacing... see question two.

2. Yes, if your wiring has a bunch of stubs the splitter removes all reflections. BUT if you were to just throw a new piece of cable from your router to ETP, not much of a need for a splitter. But then again, the splitter isn't JUST about "filtering" though. It puts a constant bridge impedance across the pair - queue @Cyril7 why that's important.

3. Don't solder your phone wires. You will get zero benefit, and it's just annoying. If I EVER see soldered joints, the first thing I do is cut them out and replace with 2/3-port connectors (scotch locks). Waaaay more prone to corrosion too which is really bad for and telecoms wiring. Even when you look at the nationwide copper network from 50 years ago, the only soldered joints are in the main exchange buildings on the MDF cable terminals. Any joints done externally were twisted, greased and insulated.

cyril7

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#2217202 15-Apr-2019 08:44

Hi, firstly don't soldier, use scotch locs, an IDC connector is designed to provide a gas tight connection that as I recall from all the noise when they were first released (seems like centuries ago) is superior in conductivity to a Cu/Soldier joint. The comment re gas tightness does not include the added moisture barrier provided by any Gel in the scotch loc.

Also unless your soldiering iron is isolated you will be earthing one leg of the exchanges battery supply, not that it cannot deal with that, but not ideal.

As for putting a filter on even if you dont need it. There is documented evidence (not that I can provide a link to it as its waaayyyy back) that a filter did assist with line impedance taming that a direct modem AFE may not achieve that was of some benefit, I would also expect that a filter may also offer some "filtering" of unwanted out of band noise that may be of benefit.

To be honest I have never found any compelling evidence of this in practice. So if you are not using POTs, then its a reasonable solution to just run a fresh cat5e/6 run from the ETP to the modem directly and leave the filter out.

As for do they die, yes I have seen filters randomly fail, I have assumed that they have taken a large electrical hit, ie secondary lightning currents etc.

Cyril

dc2daylight

87 posts

Master Geek

#2217287 15-Apr-2019 11:32

Aredwood: A vote in favor of soldering from me. But that is because I always have a soldering iron available. While for me to use any type of crimp connector, will mean having to go to Jaycar or the electrical wholesaler to buy them.

With any type of mechanical join, cleanliness is essential. Along with keeping out moisture. Because otherwise, one surface will become oxidized. And a metal oxide in contact with non oxidized metal, will behave as a diode if you pass AC signals through it. And if you pass multiple different AC signals through a diode. The diode will mix them together and cause all sorts of problems.

Thanks, this is really interesting to me, and an outstanding post as far as I'm concerned along with the next two after yours... Oxidation also causes breakdowns in a lot of circuitry internals, especially battery contacts I have found, and just like with bad electrolytic caps you can't always see any visible signs. Often there's nothing at all with even close visual inspection using a lense I find.

Seeing as those master xDSL filters are in a potted atmosphere-proof compound, I'd presume oxidation is never an issue and instead it might come down to electrolyte breakdown in caps only. Does anyone have a photo of the circuit board inside one after removal of the potting compound?

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