Landline with Fibre

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sonyxperiageek

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#280145 29-Nov-2020 21:40

Hi there,

With people on fibre these days, how does the home phone line actually work? I notice that some providers (Spark I think) require you to plug your home phone into the POTS port on the ONT, whereas some ISPs require you to plug your phone into the TEL port on the back of the ISP provided router.

Since I've been on fibre, I've gotten rid of the landline completely so haven't really kept up with the advancements on landline, but I have some friends who require it, so I wanted to try and understand how it worked technically.

What's the difference between plugging it into the ONT vs into the ISP router? Are both options still essentially just VoIP? If so, do providers allow you to get the SIP credentials and URL, and then say download a soft phone app on your mobile and connect via that way?

If someone wanted to replace their ISP provided router with something else, but that replacement router doesn't have a dedicated TEL port on it, what would be the best way to connect a home phone for someone who still wants a landline?

Thanks.

Sony

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#2612834 29-Nov-2020 21:43

It all depends how the RSP delivers phone services, from my experience it's either plug into the router they've supplied (a la 2degrees) or connect the phone to the ONT (a la Spark). But it's not usually both options available.

antoniosk

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#2612858 29-Nov-2020 22:54

Most of the rsp’s supply VoIP to their own gateway, and convert to local analogue voice, where you plug your classic phone into.

spark will enable voice to the port on the ONT.

It is possible to order from chorus integration into premises wiring, for an extra fee. Essentially the wires in the house are connected to a new socket, and you plug the voice out from ont/rgw, to generate analog voice locally.

each service provider is different in what they will and won’t support ordering of. The bigger ones won’t give support to use your own device to generate voice, the smaller ones are a little more flexible in that regard.

actual pricing and feature support is something you should check - some of it is still stuck in the last decade (eg chargung 39c/minute to call a mobile. Really?!)

don’t expect much support anymore. The world is all about mobile, feature development is about mobile, and comms is moving very quickly away from number calling to direct contact calling.

________

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rugrat

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#2612863 29-Nov-2020 23:17

I've been with Spark and currently with 2degrees. Spark landline ONT, 2degrees though router.

Only difference is where you plug the phone in, plug into ONT or router.

If using an ONT one for landline can use any router, if router one easier to use ISP supplied one. Otherwise need to set up yourself and I have no idea how to that, (would need to ask ISP if they'll provide settings etc) but I'm happy with 2degrees router so see no need.

With an ONT one can turn router off and phone will still work, but with router one router needs to be on.

I haven't looked at it hard, but I think a soft phone can be downloaded to a mobile device one with 2degrees.

I use just normal cordless phone with 2 handsets, and a second charging station which works the same on both set ups.

After using both I have no preference between which way set up, but if wish to use own router, would be more plug and play with one going through an ONT.

For an example here is a thread on setting up with 2degrees and bringing your own device:

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=85&topicid=239919

A replacement router would need to support phone settings, otherwise no go from what I can see, with the router option.

sonyxperiageek

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#2612865 29-Nov-2020 23:24

Thanks guys, makes more sense now. Phone line into ONT or Router just depends on ISP. I'd think the phone line through ONT would've been the better option as it allows the customer to either use their own router or go with the ISP's one, if they still wanted landline.

And yeah, I see 2degrees allow you to use a SIP client albeit only if connected to the same LAN as the landline router.

Sony

fe31nz

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#2612959 29-Nov-2020 23:58

sonyxperiageek: And yeah, I see 2degrees allow you to use a SIP client albeit only if connected to the same LAN as the landline router.

For 2Degrees, the FritzBoxes have an Android (and also presumably IOS) app called Fon (Phone in German) which connects to the FritzBox like a PABX extension. Any "extension" can answer incoming calls, and any "extension" can make outgoing calls. You can have as many calls in progress as you like. It is also possible to use generic VOIP software, but it take quite a bit of effort to find the right settings to make it work. I have used VOIP like that from my laptop out at the beach over an OpenVPN connection. Like a PABX, all extensions have internal numbers and can call each other. And you can set up conference calls and so on. The FritzBox is also a DECT GAP base station, so if you have portable phones that are DECT GAP (usually Panasonic, definitely not Uniden), they can be connected directly to the FritzBox instead of using their own base station. You need to have at least one phone connected to the analogue port or on a DECT GAP connection as the FritzBox uses it to authorise certain things on the FritzBox - it gives you a number to dial to authorise a backup, for example.

I run my FritzBox behind my EdgeRouter ER4, with special routing to get the VOIP traffic to the FritzBox. 2Degrees do allow this sort of setup now, but you do not get tech support for it. When I did it, it was not allowed and I had to set it up so that it was invisible to 2Degrees - if they tried to talk to my FritzBox, all they saw was the FritzBox, not my ER4. That setup is rather more complicated than is needed now. To set it up now behind another router, you just tell the FritzBox to use its mode where it knows it is behind another router.

sbiddle

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#2612993 30-Nov-2020 07:27

sonyxperiageek:
If someone wanted to replace their ISP provided router with something else, but that replacement router doesn't have a dedicated TEL port on it, what would be the best way to connect a home phone for someone who still wants a landline?

Thanks.

Most providers won't provide SIP credentials for their service - they're delivering a managed voice service and it's their job to ensure this is properly configured and works.

If you want a VoIP service where you can use your own harware you're better off looking at a VoIP provider who offers this.

nztim

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#2613042 30-Nov-2020 09:09

sonyxperiageek:
If someone wanted to replace their ISP provided router with something else, but that replacement router doesn't have a dedicated TEL port on it, what would be the best way to connect a home phone for someone who still wants a landline?

Thanks.

Choose an RSP that will deliver POTs over the ONT (this IMHO is the best way as it means the connection is router agnostic)

The two RSPs i know that actively do this is NOWNZ and Spark - Any others people?

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hio77

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#2613110 30-Nov-2020 10:34

nztim:

sonyxperiageek:
If someone wanted to replace their ISP provided router with something else, but that replacement router doesn't have a dedicated TEL port on it, what would be the best way to connect a home phone for someone who still wants a landline?

Thanks.

Choose an RSP that will deliver POTs over the ONT (this IMHO is the best way as it means the connection is router agnostic)

The two RSPs i know that actively do this is NOWNZ and Spark - Any others people?

The list is reducing as time goes on.. a few providers have been through the pain recently of migrating customers from ONT to CPE.

It's more cost effective for many providers, allows an opportunity to lock your average joe into a controllable variable.

The other thing is, for providers who are on ONT Voice, they have very much got the message that chorus isn't too keen to continue providing it.

Chorus have made no noise in that they will be withdrawing the product, but the writing is on the wall..

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nztim

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#2613120 30-Nov-2020 10:42

hio77:

nztim:

Choose an RSP that will deliver POTs over the ONT (this IMHO is the best way as it means the connection is router agnostic)

The two RSPs i know that actively do this is NOWNZ and Spark - Any others people?

The list is reducing as time goes on.. a few providers have been through the pain recently of migrating customers from ONT to CPE.

It's more cost effective for many providers, allows an opportunity to lock your average joe into a controllable variable.

The other thing is, for providers who are on ONT Voice, they have very much got the message that chorus isn't too keen to continue providing it.

Chorus have made no noise in that they will be withdrawing the product, but the writing is on the wall..

Just not good for the geek who wants to poke, prod, and change things

the other reason why I am a fan of it the POTs is over a dedicated VLAN

I know someone in Paekakariki (who needs voice because cell service is crap) - They are on Vodafone and whenever you call them while they are Gaming the voice is gargled which demonstrates the lack of QoS

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sonyxperiageek

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#2613156 30-Nov-2020 11:25

What if they use an external VoIP provider, so that they can manage the QoS themselves?

Can the Netcomm NF4V do bridge mode? If it can, I was thinking would this allow one to put their own router in front of it, so that the phone line can still be connected to the Netcomm, while not using any of the Netcomm router features?

Sony

nztim

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#2613162 30-Nov-2020 11:32

sonyxperiageek: What if they use an external VoIP provider, so that they can manage the QoS themselves?

Can the Netcomm NF4V do bridge mode? If it can, I was thinking would this allow one to put their own router in front of it, so that the phone line can still be connected to the Netcomm, while not using any of the Netcomm router features?

That wont work because if the WAN IP address is no on the netcomm (and on your own router) then the voice ports wont work

Simply put, you have three options

Ditch your voice (if you have got cell service why wouldn't you?

Change to an RSP that will still give you ONT based voice? but as @hio77 mentioned the LFC might withdraw this service

Deal with the RSPs router

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hio77

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#2613163 30-Nov-2020 11:37

nztim:

Just not good for the geek who wants to poke, prod, and change things

the other reason why I am a fan of it the POTs is over a dedicated VLAN

I know someone in Paekakariki (who needs voice because cell service is crap) - They are on Vodafone and whenever you call them while they are Gaming the voice is gargled which demonstrates the lack of QoS

having the QOS and actually using it are two very different things.....

Although Gaming shouldn't be heavy enough to kill voice at all. generally the actual gaming itself is sub 5mbit peak.... the load comes from downloading the massive updates or the streaming with it...

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#2613167 30-Nov-2020 11:40

hio77:

having the QOS and actually using it are two very different things.....

I offered to put a bridged Mikrotik between the ultrhub and onto to see if the dscp was been applied correctly

He didn't seem to keen tho

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sbiddle

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#2613374 30-Nov-2020 13:52

nztim:

hio77:

having the QOS and actually using it are two very different things.....

I offered to put a bridged Mikrotik between the ultrhub and onto to see if the dscp was been applied correctly

He didn't seem to keen tho

For QoS on the voice connection (using the high priority CIR component) it needs to be 802.1p tags, not DSCP. This is why some RSP's continue with VLAN tagging even if it's not delivering any actual benefits - if Spark for example wanted to deliver CPE based VoIP they could do this with guaranteed QoS using 802.1p tagging without needing to make any changes.

BarTender

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#2613379 30-Nov-2020 14:10

The other part of VoIP over a broadband vs dedicated ONT ATA is the ISP router needs to support either two PPPoE sessions with appropriate .1p tags if they are using PPPoE which can be problematic for some routers to support, or move to DHCP instead of PPPoE to establish the broadband connection with the implications around grooming and DHCP lease timers and general weirdness you get with some routers not liking it when the DHCP server changes from underneath them and they need to renew the lease.

All Voice ATAs use DHCP between all the LFCs on VLAN10 with .1p marking and they all behave slightly differently to each other where 3 of them need to be provisioned with the ATA credentials and VoIP profile such as dial plan as part of the service order whereas Chorus use TR069 to allow the RSPs to configure them all themselves. I don't think anyone other than Spark used the ATA in the ONT in anger. Spark also offered a Voice only for folks who didn't want broadband at home and only wanted a phone line.

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