Fibre Install - ETP Box Type and 20mm Conduits

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SBQ

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#302889 1-Jan-2023 11:56

I may be the last person on the street trying to get fibre broadband installed. Our provider is Enable (Christchurch) and throughout the years they've never been able to meet to my standard of install I wanted. We had 2 attempts at times where it was hitting a wall to do a simple task like dropping their conduit lines in an open trench. Anyways having another attempt I had an Enable guy come by which we discussed what can be done.

1) They would only supply an install where the fibre line is fixed along the fence. They will not do trenching and being 30m from the street to where I wanted the ETP, this would only be something I had to do myself. They also would not supply any of the hard plastic 20mm PVC conduit. Their scope was to do basic installs.

2) They also would not dig under the concrete foot path I have around my house and instead, do a concrete blade cut and squeeze the fibre cable in, and seal. On a previous install that I did (below link between middle & right heat pump), I installed electrical TPS in conduit. I asked why they can't do that but his reply was too much work:

https://i.imgur.com/vj88UA3h.jpg?1

3) He did mention of an ETP box where the 20mm conduit enters from the bottom and exits from the top but we could not find a photo. (Nothing online either). I'm trying to avoid something like this where the outgoing line is looped up from the bottom of the ETP below:

I've read Enable's installation guide here: https://www.enable.net.nz/assets/2021-Installation-Standard-Precabling-for-Fibre-Broadband.pdf

Page 6 says in a SDU, "If the Service lead-in has been laid directly into the premise without an ETP then the prewire shall run from the Service lead-in entry point to the Home Media Panel or Communications Panel"

So I asked why can't run the hard 20mm conduit through the concrete and along the brick cladding all the way up through the roof soffit where the conduit in the roof space is leading to central network connection hub? He said an ETP is a requirement.

Has anyone had such an ETP install where the cabling exit through the top of the box? I know all the ETP installs i've seen, have the fibre cable through the cladding but in my case, I prefer to go without a bottom loop. Or better yet, have any installs gone without the use of an ETP?

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#3015731 1-Jan-2023 12:16

looking at that ETP there doesn't appear to be a provision to go out the top. Also if you think like water its a lot easier for it to leak if there is a penetration in the top of the box.

Not enable, bit a queried chorus about an ETP-less install and they weren't super happy about it but conceded it could be done. in the end i had an ETP installed but i had done everything for the contractor, all they had to do was mount the ETP and pull the fibre.

As for tacking to to a fence, as the old saying goes, if you want the job right you have to do it yourself. you may have to run the conduit yourself, and i wouldn't think there would be many fibre installers that would complain that someone has done most of their job for them.

k1w1k1d

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#3015737 1-Jan-2023 12:50

Enable has certainly changed their installs since 2015 when ours was thrusted under the drive and lawn to the front of the house. Very neat and unlikely to ever need repairs like clipping to a fence.

Has the government not increased the price to the installers, or cut the price?

antoniosk

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#3015741 1-Jan-2023 12:59

k1w1k1d:

Enable has certainly changed their installs since 2015 when ours was thrusted under the drive and lawn to the front of the house. Very neat and unlikely to ever need repairs like clipping to a fence.

Has the government not increased the price to the installers, or cut the price?

field service costs are beyond horrific. Saturn burnt through tons of money doing quality installs starting in Upper Hutt and coming into wellington and quickly switched to overhead and cheap as possible.

this close to the end of the fibre programme - chorus announced their completion in December - I’d be very surprised if installers got a general uplift in rates. The margins on these installs, with all the subcontracting going on, was always really low. My place was one of the easiest places to connect, I made it easier for the install by having ducting and pull wires in the conduit ready to go, and it still took the guy 5 hours over 3 visits to do the job (pre-sight, 1 bad weather day, and the final day).

we are now into the costlier and trickier 10% of the country with long runs, sparse connections and ever more pricier costs/connection.

________

Antoniosk

SBQ

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#3015748 1-Jan-2023 13:20

Jase2985:

looking at that ETP there doesn't appear to be a provision to go out the top. Also if you think like water its a lot easier for it to leak if there is a penetration in the top of the box.

Not enable, bit a queried chorus about an ETP-less install and they weren't super happy about it but conceded it could be done. in the end i had an ETP installed but i had done everything for the contractor, all they had to do was mount the ETP and pull the fibre.

As for tacking to to a fence, as the old saying goes, if you want the job right you have to do it yourself. you may have to run the conduit yourself, and i wouldn't think there would be many fibre installers that would complain that someone has done most of their job for them.

That's why I made my post here to see if the Enable guy really knew what he was talking about (if an ETP exists with both top and bottom openings). The issue is ingress water protection but it can be achieved if the box leaves no gaps and is fully sealed. I think the requirement for an ETP is more to do with how they coil extra fibre length in the box to allow for alterations or breaks in the line. However this can be done on the inside connection (ITP) or at the central hub where the fibre modem is. I should ask Enable again to clarify what they mean on Page 6 of their SDU installation and how the wording says an ETP-less installation can be done.

As for most things around my house, I DIY because i'm fussy. I installed a new driveway with power gate and had a good portion of the ground for the electrical cable in open trench. But Enable at the time was "too busy" and could not even drop their conduit in before the concrete guys showed up. Now it's entirely DIY on my part to get fibre broadband installed. Back in Canada at the house where I grew up, my father said they've been installing fibre and they do EVERY house (no exceptions) where it's done all underground trenching. They drill and drill to bring the connection right to the edge of the house, instead of in NZ leaving each individual house hold to organise their connection to the street.

Mehrts

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#3015753 1-Jan-2023 13:29

SBQ:

The issue is ingress water protection but it can be achieved if the box leaves no gaps and is fully sealed.

Believe it or not, a fully sealed box still accumulates moisture inside it via condensation from the air over a long period of time, however that condensation now has no means of escape and can build up. I've seen it many times where electrical connections have corroded due to no means of moisture escape from a fully sealed box.

A semi-sealed box is usually the best option, as it protects from the elements but also allows it to vent any moisture outside.

Bottom entry for boxes is also best practice, as this prevents any moisture from entering via the cables if they were side or top entry.

Jase2985

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#3015761 1-Jan-2023 14:24

SBQ:

That's why I made my post here to see if the Enable guy really knew what he was talking about (if an ETP exists with both top and bottom openings). The issue is ingress water protection but it can be achieved if the box leaves no gaps and is fully sealed. I think the requirement for an ETP is more to do with how they coil extra fibre length in the box to allow for alterations or breaks in the line. However this can be done on the inside connection (ITP) or at the central hub where the fibre modem is. I should ask Enable again to clarify what they mean on Page 6 of their SDU installation and how the wording says an ETP-less installation can be done.

bottom entry ETP's are best practise as with most other cable boxes mounted outside.

the reason for an ETP is it allows a technician access to the join between internal and external fibre from outside the property and avoids the need to engaging the home owner.

I suspect the paragraph from enable is more aimed at MDU's.

SBQ:

As for most things around my house, I DIY because i'm fussy. I installed a new driveway with power gate and had a good portion of the ground for the electrical cable in open trench. But Enable at the time was "too busy" and could not even drop their conduit in before the concrete guys showed up. Now it's entirely DIY on my part to get fibre broadband installed. Back in Canada at the house where I grew up, my father said they've been installing fibre and they do EVERY house (no exceptions) where it's done all underground trenching. They drill and drill to bring the connection right to the edge of the house, instead of in NZ leaving each individual house hold to organise their connection to the street.

you should have ran your own conduit when you did the drive. not rely on enable to deliver you some.

each individual house does not organise their own connection the the street, you contact your ISP and chorus come to discuss what they can do within their allocated budget for the install. if you don't like what they propose its up to you to come up with a better solution.

Do i agree with their methods, of shallow slot trenches, burred in the garden and stapled to fences, absolutely not, its suppose to be an investment and a long standing and serving network so a little more effort at the start gets you a better more robust product going forward, but someone has to pay for it.

allan

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#3015766 1-Jan-2023 15:00

antoniosk:

k1w1k1d:

Enable has certainly changed their installs since 2015 when ours was thrusted under the drive and lawn to the front of the house. Very neat and unlikely to ever need repairs like clipping to a fence.

Has the government not increased the price to the installers, or cut the price?

field service costs are beyond horrific. Saturn burnt through tons of money doing quality installs starting in Upper Hutt and coming into wellington and quickly switched to overhead and cheap as possible.....

Had an odd thing with the install into my parents old house in New Plymouth (Tuatahi Fibre) about 18 months ago. Even although existing copper was underground (having been converted from overhead many years previously), power was overhead and was told all fibre installs there were overhead. However, they then discovered the closest street pole had a do not climb notice on it, so after much consideration, fibre eventually thrust under front lawn!

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SBQ

104 posts

Master Geek

#3015781 1-Jan-2023 15:23

Jase2985:

you should have ran your own conduit when you did the drive. not rely on enable to deliver you some.

each individual house does not organise their own connection the the street, you contact your ISP and chorus come to discuss what they can do within their allocated budget for the install. if you don't like what they propose its up to you to come up with a better solution.

Do i agree with their methods, of shallow slot trenches, burred in the garden and stapled to fences, absolutely not, its suppose to be an investment and a long standing and serving network so a little more effort at the start gets you a better more robust product going forward, but someone has to pay for it.

At the time, Enable said they only use their OWN plastic conduit and would not use any conduit installed by the home owner. Now they seem to have relaxed that requirement. I have sent email but do not expect a quick reply as we're in new year holidays.

All my neighbours have switched over to fibre and my monthly cost by staying on copper VDSL from my ISP keeps going up year after year. Chorus (who owns the copper lines) keeps jacking up the line fee citing higher maintenance cost and not enough subscriber base to service copper lines. The writing is on the wall that I have to switch over and make this fibre installation work.

As for ingress water protection, no exterior box fitting is entirely sealed but I do believe there should be sufficient seal (by design) where extreme rain can not push water through inside the box fitting. From all the ETP boxes I see, you lose the seal when you drill a hole through the exterior cladding, likewise with electrical boxes with mains sockets, the air passes through the 3 pin prongs. Condensation? sure if you have cold surfaces like metal inside but I don't think condensation is so much of an issue with fibre cables inside PVC/ASB plastic boxes.

elpenguino

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#3015892 1-Jan-2023 20:11

SBQ:

As for ingress water protection, no exterior box fitting is entirely sealed but I do believe there should be sufficient seal (by design) where extreme rain can not push water through inside the box fitting. From all the ETP boxes I see, you lose the seal when you drill a hole through the exterior cladding, likewise with electrical boxes with mains sockets, the air passes through the 3 pin prongs. Condensation? sure if you have cold surfaces like metal inside but I don't think condensation is so much of an issue with fibre cables inside PVC/ASB plastic boxes.

No, the previous poster is correct. Downward facing cable out/inlets are best practise.

Yes, moisture accumulates in 'sealed' enclosures which are outdoors. It's because the enclosure 'pumps' air in and out as it heats up every day and cools every night. It's worse if you try and seal the enclosure as it is nigh on impossible to actually completely seal it.

Therefore it's usually better to allow a bit of ventilation.

The exception for attempted seals is to install dessicant inside the enclosure and regularly change it.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

SomeoneSomewhere

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#3015990 2-Jan-2023 00:06

Yeah, any attempted seals are basically guaranteed to fail sooner or later, and when that happens the water will track down the cable if it possibly can into the termination. Bottom entry/exit is vastly preferred.

Temperature changes also mean that the equipment inside the box lags in temperature behind the exterior, so you find cold metal/plastic/glass inside the box being hit with warming outside air, and condensation forming. Essentially the same mechanism as is behind dew.

Usually electrical wholesalers sell the Chorus-branded conduit; I assume the same applies for Enable in CHCH. Chorus/Enable won't just give it to you unless they're actually the ones installing it.

Non-ETP installs are a bad idea; the fibre is I believe usually continuous from the ETP to the fibre splitter which might be a few hundred metres to a km down the road. If someone digs through the microduct carrying your fibre, they can't splice it at the break; it needs to be spliced at the ends of the microduct i.e. the ETP or the splitter. If there's no ETP, then they need to get access to inside the house.

A better option is to punch a hole in the brick and go up inside the wall. Usually with brick veneer you have a gap between the bricks and the studs (and paper), and you can hopefully fish a drawwire down there.

raytaylor

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#3017364 5-Jan-2023 14:41

k1w1k1d:

Has the government not increased the price to the installers, or cut the price?

The government just loaned the local fiber companies (enable/chorus/etc) money to get started which needs to be paid back.
Those LFC companies offer free installs at their own cost to ISPs as an incentive for end users to get connected vs staying on copper.

Ray Taylor

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raytaylor

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#3017368 5-Jan-2023 14:54

SBQ:

Back in Canada at the house where I grew up, my father said they've been installing fibre and they do EVERY house (no exceptions) where it's done all underground trenching. They drill and drill to bring the connection right to the edge of the house, instead of in NZ leaving each individual house hold to organise their connection to the street.

The difference would be in Canada its the incumbant doing the installation and I would expect the network operator and ISP are the same company, and they can forcibly shut off copper access.

Here its just the network operator with lower margins, Chorus owns the copper network and probably would prefer to keep end customers on it rather than shut it down to force customers to switch to Enable - a competitor.

It costs about $5k just to get a directional drill on site so in canada they would be doing a street at a time and forcing customers to switch with a notice saying the copper is shutting down.

Here there is more choice and some customers might not like to have fiber installed.

If doing a street at a time, there would be some crossover where installations could be done cheaper with a directional drill due to the speed it offers, vs doing each house individually where getting a drilling crew on site and set up costs way to much to do it for each house on different days.

Ray Taylor

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SBQ

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Master Geek

#3017597 5-Jan-2023 23:15

SomeoneSomewhere:

Yeah, any attempted seals are basically guaranteed to fail sooner or later, and when that happens the water will track down the cable if it possibly can into the termination. Bottom entry/exit is vastly preferred.

Temperature changes also mean that the equipment inside the box lags in temperature behind the exterior, so you find cold metal/plastic/glass inside the box being hit with warming outside air, and condensation forming. Essentially the same mechanism as is behind dew.

Usually electrical wholesalers sell the Chorus-branded conduit; I assume the same applies for Enable in CHCH. Chorus/Enable won't just give it to you unless they're actually the ones installing it.

Non-ETP installs are a bad idea; the fibre is I believe usually continuous from the ETP to the fibre splitter which might be a few hundred metres to a km down the road. If someone digs through the microduct carrying your fibre, they can't splice it at the break; it needs to be spliced at the ends of the microduct i.e. the ETP or the splitter. If there's no ETP, then they need to get access to inside the house.

A better option is to punch a hole in the brick and go up inside the wall. Usually with brick veneer you have a gap between the bricks and the studs (and paper), and you can hopefully fish a drawwire down there.

All exterior box fittings are not going to be sealed when you have an entry or exit hole drilled through the house exterior cladding. Take for example the PDL 600 series external power points, they have a rubber seal that is continuous from the back plate to the front fitting (when you screw the box screws) but there's still that hole where the mains wiring enters inside through the back of the box that is screwed against the wall. Why? Well the whole idea as I mentioned before is ingress protection. You want a seal sufficient enough so water just doesn't weep inside and fills the box fitting.

Are we missing the elephant in the room? How much condensation is there for fibre (no metal or copper wiring) inside the ETP? As a matter of interest, the location of the ETP on my install is on the north side.

I'm not fond of drilling through the brick cladding, through the building paper, then through my rigid air barrier / plywood, through the insulation, then finally through the drywall/Gib lining. Building code states all exterior wall penetrations must be tape and sealed off (ie pipe and electrical wires that pass through the building paper). There's good reason for this and this has to do with stopping condensation passing through the wall space. My uncle did a PhD in architect design at Auckland uni where that a pin hole through the building envelop is enough to accumulate vast amounts of condensation in many buildings questionable to the Leaky House Syndrome. Many 'plaster' exterior claddings that relied only on the thickness of the paint to stop water from penetrating in. Small hairline cracks would form and water starts forming on the inside wall cavity. He says if you really want to stop condensation, then you can just build the wall like a fridge. (hint the key point being completely air tight and no water permeability). But once you start drilling holes through the wall, then you've allowed an entry point for moisture (and condensation) to form.

SBQ

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#3017600 6-Jan-2023 00:01

raytaylor:

The difference would be in Canada its the incumbant doing the installation and I would expect the network operator and ISP are the same company, and they can forcibly shut off copper access.

Here its just the network operator with lower margins, Chorus owns the copper network and probably would prefer to keep end customers on it rather than shut it down to force customers to switch to Enable - a competitor.

It costs about $5k just to get a directional drill on site so in canada they would be doing a street at a time and forcing customers to switch with a notice saying the copper is shutting down.

Here there is more choice and some customers might not like to have fiber installed.

If doing a street at a time, there would be some crossover where installations could be done cheaper with a directional drill due to the speed it offers, vs doing each house individually where getting a drilling crew on site and set up costs way to much to do it for each house on different days.

The ISPs and lines operators are not always the same company. The CRTC has banned that practice of telcos in Canada long ago to allow for competition (especially through cellphone services). That new fibre line installed at my parent's home can have any choice of ISPs he chooses. As for forcibly shutting off copper? Let the market decide and it's clear that fibre optic is superior in speed and maintenance. Even Canada's largest cable provider has switched their backbone coaxial network, over to fibre. Regardless who is with any ISP, no one is being forced off copper in Canada. Customers want to switch to fibre because it's simply better. Here in NZ it's a different story. Those that continue on with copper DSL will end up paying more for less service. Many premises can not easily switch to fibre ; a good example is alarm monitoring networks that rely on POTS vs VOIP based networks. The hardware upgrade to vOIP / digital is costly.

My beef about NZ's network deployment is the same with our electrical network. Too many retailers, too many lines operators, no consensus of anything getting done. End result is you have slow deployment due to slow installation at one dwelling at a time. Huge inefficiency that leads to higher prices such as in our electrical market. Here in Christchurch all the electrical lines are owned by Orion. So not only the customer has to deal with the retailer provider, but also the retail provider has to deal with the Orion network for their cut in the profit (which is owned by the Chch City Council). Too many layers each taking a cut vs in Canada, in the province of BC you have BC Hydro that offers electricity at less than 1/2 of NZ's going rate because it's a single gov't entity that is responsible for all deployment of the network lines to electrical generation. Their Site C dam is on schedule to go online to provide BC residents enough electricity for the next 100 years. When was the last time a major hydro project was done in NZ? Not gonna happen... our gov'ts want people to conserve or live in tents.

But going back to my original query about ETP. What evidence is there that a decently designed, top entry / exit box can cause problems to a fibre connection inside? Here's 2 examples of top entry conduit / piping:

SomeoneSomewhere

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#3017604 6-Jan-2023 00:57

For starters, those are threaded entries designed to be used with appropriate threaded couplers/adapters, glue etc. Chorus is lazy and doesn't use that stuff. The meter box is also already showing signs of rust and likely has paths for water egress out the bottom.

Electrical is actually a lot less susceptible to water ingress as long as creepage/clearance are maintained. Everything is much thicker so corrosion is slower.

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