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Topic # 7802 10-May-2006 20:35
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Watching a presentation by one of these major media outlets that doesn't hyperlink our blogs tonight... I see that the CC are talking about investigating why there isn't a third mobile network in NZ.

At 5pm this afternoon I was chatting to my mum while standing watching my nephews doing their rugby practice in a big open park in Burnside, Christchurch.

Nothing unusual about that?

Ok, my mum is in Wellington and I wasn't using a mobile to chat to her..

I was chatting to her using Skype on my PDA which was connecting to someones wifi AP. No idea who's AP it was but the coverage was pleanty good enough.

Now you might consider this unusual, but I was chatting to my dad last week (also in Wellington) from a cafe in the local mall - also an open wifi AP.

Given that this is the future, why would anyone consider setting up a new mobile network?

It's no wonder that Telecom's share price seems to have had a 'dead cat bounce' and is back on the way down.

Cheers Don

[Moderator edit: known bug on hyperlinking, must add the 'http://' part, or links dont work here, thanks for making the effort though!]




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Reply # 35434 10-May-2006 22:22
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I don't think open Wi-Fi is the future. In some countries (New Zealand included), broadband access is metered. I am not sharing my broadband with someone that will leech movies 24/7, or download illegal material without leaving an ID behind.

Open, unprotected Wi-Fi is a security risk.





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  Reply # 35437 10-May-2006 22:27
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I have my WIFI MAC lock down, so only the allowed MAC can get to the router and share the internet... I did this as i recently found out there is another WIFI nearby, and i can see their network just fine. Given the basic sniper rule, if you can see them, there is also a very high chance that they can see you too....


So i have to take the preemptive active, block my wifi's access with MAC lockdown... that way i don't have to fiddle with WEP or WPA. in many cases, WEP and WPA can seriously hinder the bandwidth performance... and MAC lock down is still the easiest and safest way.




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  Reply # 35443 10-May-2006 23:00
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1.  I don't personally see how open wifi is a security issue if you've got your machines set up properly (or if you're like me, to a known standard).  Do you care to explain that in more detail?  At present it all seems like industry FUD to me.

2.  Who's going dl 24/7 and go unnoticed?  I have my ap open thru my nix box so I can see the traffic and put shaping on it if I want...

3.  My point was that open wifi has an impact...  every meeting I go to for a local lug, people boast about the number of open wifi nodes they've been picking up on.   This suggests to me that people simply don't care.  

4. I see open ip becoming a draw card in cafes, malls, etc.  It's to hard to have secured wifi.  My locals can get a wifi/10gb dsl and it costs them less than $25/week to just give the service away to customers.  I now I'd be inclined to drink more coffee if I was reading the news on my pda.  Especially if I can catch up with people via skype.


Cheers Don




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  Reply # 35445 10-May-2006 23:05
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DonGould: 1.  I don't personally see how open wifi is a security issue if you've got your machines set up properly (or if you're like me, to a known standard).  Do you care to explain that in more detail?  At present it all seems like industry FUD to me.


I am not referring to other machines on this network, but simply the unauthorised use of the bandwidth I alone pay for.

DonGould: 2.  Who's going dl 24/7 and go unnoticed?  I have my ap open thru my nix box so I can see the traffic and put shaping on it if I want...


You have a box with this. Not everyone is an IT Administrator though. I can't see all John Doe in my street sharing their Wi-Fi and having no vision of what's going on.

DonGould: 3.  My point was that open wifi has an impact...  every meeting I go to for a local lug, people boast about the number of open wifi nodes they've been picking up on.   This suggests to me that people simply don't care. 


This suggests to me people simply don't know.

DonGould: 4. I see open ip becoming a draw card in cafes, malls, etc.  It's to hard to have secured wifi.  My locals can get a wifi/10gb dsl and it costs them less than $25/week to just give the service away to customers.  I now I'd be inclined to drink more coffee if I was reading the news on my pda.  Especially if I can catch up with people via skype.


This is the intentional, business oriented, sharing of their connection. I've used free Wi-Fi in cafes, not common in New Zealand, but quite easy to find in the USA. This is different from folks at home sharing their broadband connections.






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  Reply # 35448 10-May-2006 23:20
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freitasm:  I am not referring to other machines on this network, but simply the unauthorised use of the bandwidth I alone pay for.


You telling me that when people come to your house and ask to use the phone you give them a bill?  Yes I take your point, and frankly if I saw people dl heaps of data on my link I would be inclined to block the odd mac.

freitasm:  You have a box with this. Not everyone is an IT Administrator though. I can't see all John Doe in my street sharing their Wi-Fi and having no vision of what's going on.


Do you remember when fax first came out?  I recall when mobile first came out and people told me blank that no one would pay to call anyone else... now no one thinks twice.  I'd agree it's not a change that's going to happen over night.  But do you disagree that it's a direction we're heading in?

I also think that we're going to start seeing turn key box solutions. 

freitasm:  This suggests to me people simply don't know.

If people started getting emails about data caps then they'll start to care and work it out.  But how much data stealling do you think will happen?

freitasm:  This is the intentional, business oriented, sharing of their connection. I've used free Wi-Fi in cafes, not common in New Zealand, but quite easy to find in the USA. This is different from folks at home sharing their broadband connections.


apache - how long before we see more devices like this?

Technology and cluture are catching up at the same rate...

I started this thread as an explination to why no one is considering setting up a third mobile network in NZ.  So far there's been a bit of debate about my views on open wifi aps...  but what about the topic? 

Does anyone not think that the emergence of this technology is having and going to have an impact on mobile networks and revenue?

Cheers Don




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  Reply # 35449 10-May-2006 23:28
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DonGould:
freitasm:  I am not referring to other machines on this network, but simply the unauthorised use of the bandwidth I alone pay for.


You telling me that when people come to your house and ask to use the phone you give them a bill?  Yes I take your point, and frankly if I saw people dl heaps of data on my link I would be inclined to block the odd mac.


When people come to my house I invite them to use my connection. I don't like the idea of people I don't know and never met before using my broadband. Different things.

DonGould:
freitasm:  You have a box with this. Not everyone is an IT Administrator though. I can't see all John Doe in my street sharing their Wi-Fi and having no vision of what's going on.


Do you remember when fax first came out?  I recall when mobile first came out and people told me blank that no one would pay to call anyone else... now no one thinks twice.  I'd agree it's not a change that's going to happen over night.  But do you disagree that it's a direction we're heading in?

I also think that we're going to start seeing turn key box solutions. 


I don't think Fax and cellular telephony has anything to do with John Doe being able to administer a network. Completely different stuff.

DonGould:
freitasm:  This suggests to me people simply don't know.

If people started getting emails about data caps then they'll start to care and work it out.  But how much data stealling do you think will happen?


By the time they realise the telco has already charged their accounts. Not good at all.

DonGould:
freitasm:  This is the intentional, business oriented, sharing of their connection. I've used free Wi-Fi in cafes, not common in New Zealand, but quite easy to find in the USA. This is different from folks at home sharing their broadband connections.


apache - how long before we see more devices like this?


What does the HTC Apache has to do with sharing wireless LAN? I know pretty much where that technology is going, but can't say much now.

DonGould: I started this thread as an explination to why no one is considering setting up a third mobile network in NZ.  So far there's been a bit of debate about my views on open wifi aps...  but what about the topic?


I am debating the reasoning you presented for the lack of a third mobile network in NZ, and it seems that you think Wi-Fi is good for this - when it is not. So I am doing the role of "Devil's advocate" here.

DonGould: Does anyone not think that the emergence of this technology is having and going to have an impact on mobile networks and revenue?


I don't think so. Wireless LAN is not emerging. It's been in the cards for years, and more people are using it, but not for the purposes you presented.





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  Reply # 35460 11-May-2006 08:23
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chiefie: I have my WIFI MAC lock down, so only the allowed MAC can get to the router and share the internet... I did this as i recently found out there is another WIFI nearby, and i can see their network just fine. Given the basic sniper rule, if you can see them, there is also a very high chance that they can see you too....


So i have to take the preemptive active, block my wifi's access with MAC lockdown... that way i don't have to fiddle with WEP or WPA. in many cases, WEP and WPA can seriously hinder the bandwidth performance... and MAC lock down is still the easiest and safest way.

I was also doing this, until I discovered that MAC addresses are supposedly relatively easy to spoof...




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  Reply # 35464 11-May-2006 08:33
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DonGould: Does anyone not think that the emergence of this technology is having and going to have an impact on mobile networks and revenue?

I dont think so. Completely different technologies that currently complement, and not replace, each other.
Will Skype/SIP/VoIP have a measurable impact on PSTN toll revenues within 5 - 10 years? - Yes
Will these technologies have a measurable impact on traditional cellular networks within 5 - 10 years? - I seriously doubt it.

Great technology, and you have some interesting if not altruistic concepts, but especially metered broadband is something that Joe Bloggs doesnt want to give away.

Cafe X advertises free open WiFi, ten geeks go and drive-by with laptops and blow their cap on the first day (or 50 geeks taking 7 days or whatever), and the service sucks for everyone else. Same could happen with my connection at home. We simply dont have the bandwidth or uncaps to make this viable, and when we do, the very valid culture of 'i paid for it so its mine' will continue to exist until there is a compelling event to change that.




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  Reply # 35465 11-May-2006 08:34
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tonyhughes: I was also doing this, until I discovered that MAC addresses are supposedly relatively easy to spoof...


Yeah but where I am, it is still pretty safe to use MAC for now, i don't think my neighbour will get into MAC spoof (at this stage)...




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  Reply # 35467 11-May-2006 08:42
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Third mobile network is on the way from Econet

I can't believe that you leeched someone elses AP. Sounds like theft to me unless of course a message popped up when connected that said 'welcome to my free for all AP'. What you have probably done is taken advantage of some poor person who doesn't understand WiFi security. Does that mean that if I left my front door open you would come into my house, make yourself comfortable and watch my TV?





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  Reply # 35468 11-May-2006 08:45
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Jama: 1. Third mobile network on the way from Econet

Yes - as a user of all the technology listed on this thread, i can confidently say that if EcoNet turns into a real little boy, instead of the vaporware Pinocchio it is now (remember who coined that little gem if you ever see it again), it certainly wont affect my use/purchasing/operation of any WiFi or VoIP products...




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  Reply # 35474 11-May-2006 09:27
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DonGould: I was chatting to her using Skype on my PDA which was connecting to someones wifi AP. No idea who's AP it was but the coverage was pleanty good enough.

Now you might consider this unusual, but I was chatting to my dad last week (also in Wellington) from a cafe in the local mall - also an open wifi AP.


Before anyone else tries to do the same as Don, please bear mind that accessing someone else's network without permission - and jacking the bandwidth - could land you in some very hot water with the law. The new Computer Crimes amendment is pretty frightening stuff.




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  Reply # 35475 11-May-2006 09:32
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chiefie: I have my WIFI MAC lock down, so only the allowed MAC can get to the router and share the internet... I did this as i recently found out there is another WIFI nearby, and i can see their network just fine. Given the basic sniper rule, if you can see them, there is also a very high chance that they can see you too....


So i have to take the preemptive active, block my wifi's access with MAC lockdown... that way i don't have to fiddle with WEP or WPA. in many cases, WEP and WPA can seriously hinder the bandwidth performance... and MAC lock down is still the easiest and safest way.


Using MAC restrictions is *very* insecure. It would take somebody all of 30 seconds to have access to your network as MAC addresses can be easily cloned. WEP is also a waste of time. If you want good  security you will need to use WPA or WPA2, hiding your SSID is also an additional layer that can slow down somebody trying to pry into your network.


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  Reply # 35476 11-May-2006 09:33
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Jama:  What you have probably done is taken advantage of some poor person who doesn't understand WiFi security. Does that mean that if I left my front door open you would come into my house, make yourself comfortable and watch my TV?




Do you have Sky and cold beer in the fridge? :-)


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  Reply # 35478 11-May-2006 09:44
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sbiddle: Using MAC restrictions is *very* insecure. It would take somebody all of 30 seconds to have access to your network as MAC addresses can be easily cloned. WEP is also a waste of time. If you want good  security you will need to use WPA or WPA2, hiding your SSID is also an additional layer that can slow down somebody trying to pry into your network.



Can't do WPA or WPA2 as not all WIFI devices we have in the house are WPA-compatible. Anyhow, I also have SSID hidden too. I do know that it will not take too long for someone to clone the MAC address. At the moment, in my area, there's only one other AP. It's only last month that i found another AP and I have my AP up and running for a year already.




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