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fe31nz

1228 posts

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  #2993316 8-Nov-2022 00:26
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I do not need or want a server system - they are too noisy to run in a home environment, and generally use far too much electricity too (making all that noise!).  As for a NAS, there is no point in having a NAS when you have a PC that runs 24/7 - you just put more and/or bigger drives on the PC.  It is cheaper that way than a separate NAS.  So what I want is a new desktop motherboard that will do everything that my old one does, but also has the latest technology and will run Windows 11 (and 12 and 13) well for the next 10 years.  In the past, it was not difficult to find such motherboards - they were generally at the higher end of the price range, but when I have bought good motherboards, they have lasted very well.  This time, there is nothing at all that I can find that has 5 PCIe slots and 8 SATA ports and also does PCIe 5.0.  Even the grossly over the top $2000 motherboards do not have enough PCIe slots.  It just seems to be something that their designers have forgotten about - each slot only accommodates one physical device!  More cards needs more slots!

 

@richms: If you could point me to a $700 motherboard that does PCIe 5.0 and has the slots I want, then please do.  The $2000 motherboards I have looked at do not have that many slots.  With PCIe 4.0, yes, you can get the slots still, but so far, not with PCIe 5.0.

 

I was aware of the M.2 to SATA x 4 boards - they are a decent option to get more SATA ports, but since I read the reviews on them and discovered that they are bandwidth limited when all of the SATA ports are in simultaneous use, I decided a better option was probably a SAS card with SATA cables.  Especially since I already have such a SAS card in the Windows box similar to the one @rb99 pointed to.  Mine is an IBM rebrand of an LSI SAS2008.  It has 8 SATA ports, 4 on each SAS connector, and uses a PCIe 2.0 x8 interface, so it uses up a x8 slot, but it was very cheap.  It is now possible to get much more in a SAS card, using PCIe 3.0 and 4.0 so it does not need as many PCIe lanes, but the prices are steep.  I may invest in one if I ever need to, but for now the LSI SAS2008 is fine.

 

I am considering reducing the number of drives in this PC, as some are very old and small now (2-3 Tbytes).  It does have several bigger ones though, 8, 12 and 16 Tbytes.  My MythTV box has 2 x 18 Tbytes now, and 20 Tbyte drives are available.  So I could replace the 4 small drives with one big one now.  But eventually, I would expect to need over 8 SATA ports again.  And I need to wait until I have a new motherboard before I can replace the old drives, as the BIOS on the old motherboard is very cranky when it comes to booting NVMe and needs to do it with old partitioning, not GPT.  It was never designed to boot NVMe, so is is fairly miraculous it does at all.  I have to be able to boot to a secondary Win 10 boot partition to recover from the frequent crashes where the main Win 10 GUI just locks up.  And the secondary boot works off the oldest 2 Tbyte drive, and is dependent on that drive being on the ASMedia controller, as the BIOS refuses to boot anything on the SB950 chip while an NVMe drive is installed.  Arrgh!

 

@surfisup1000: I have tried Win 11 - I have it on my new laptop.  I did not like the way it worked, so I just installed Stardock's Start11, which I already use on Win 10:

 

https://www.stardock.com/products/start11

 

That way I can choose to use a Win 7 style interface, which I prefer.  I also use Stardock's ObjectDock for starting things I commonly use:

 

https://www.stardock.com/products/objectdock

 

That means I do not use the main Windows menu much at all.

 

With those add-ons, Win 11 is fine, just as Win 10 was.

 

 




surfisup1000
5288 posts

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  #2993354 8-Nov-2022 09:45
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fe31nz:

 

 So what I want is a new desktop motherboard that will do everything that my old one does, but also has the latest technology and will run Windows 11 (and 12 and 13) well for the next 10 years.  In the past, it was not difficult to find such motherboards - they were generally at the higher end of the price range, but when I have bought good motherboards, they have lasted very well. 

 

 

The PC market has segmented in a way that doesn't meet your needs. 

 

Get a mobo with 2 ethernet ports and several NVME slots. Get a HDHomerun to use for your tuner  ... it means you only need 2 PCIe slots, for your gfx and for your SAS card. Replace your smaller drives with fewer larger drives so you need fewer sata ports. 

 

Dump one or both of the optical drives. Replace with an external optical if you really need it and are still short on sata ports. 

 

You don't need pcie 5.0 .... go for the best value option and use the money you save to upgrade in 5 years time. 


gbwelly
1243 posts

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  #2993464 8-Nov-2022 12:33
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fe31nz:

 

with Win 10 giving me the usual problems that Windows always does when it has been used for too long, I am going to have to do a reinstall.  So I would prefer to install Win 11, rather than go with Win 10 again.

 

After reading this thread, surely it's just easier to stay on Windows 10?

 

Just chuck 21H2 on there and you have support until 2027.

 

 










toejam316
1466 posts

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  #2993465 8-Nov-2022 12:37
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It sounds like you're really overcomplicating something that should be simple.

 

You need a discrete modern system, like a NUC for your daily usage, and to either convert your current system into a server/NAS, which will not magically make it louder and hotter, or build a second system using off the shelf consumer parts that suit your needs and run that as a server/NAS.

 

Even better - if you have a spot, you can put that dedicated storage system in a hidden spot where you don't even need to worry about the sound or heat.





Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.


reven
3743 posts

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  #2993525 8-Nov-2022 16:04
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well "servers" dont have to be loud.  a server is just something that servers something.   my unraid server is less than 30db and can takes 20 hdds, runs quietly and doesnt use a lot of power cos most of the time is idle.   

 

a rack mount 1u server are usually loud AF, but also dont have to be (second hand ones off TM will be though :P)

 

 

 

benefits of a NAS

 

  • can be 24/7 - now windows updates/shutdowns etc to interrupt it
  • can be a low powered system that can support a lot of drives
  • can run other things in docker containers, home automation, DVRs/PVRs, Plex etc

benefits of having a separate computer

 

  • can mess around with things and not stuff up  your NAS :P
  • can make a pretty computer with no ugly cables/drives
  • way better thermals as case isnt jammed with hard drives to restrict air flow

i just find it kinda odd that you want something to last 10 years, so you clearly dont care about the latest and greatest stuff, which is perfectly fine, but you want every pcie lane to pcie x5.  what are you going to be filling those slots with for 10 years?  a GPU these days takes up at least 2 slots, sometimes 3 (so they usually remove a slot on the mb next to the gpu).    GPUs now dont even use pcie x5.  nvme's are only just starting to come out that are pcie x5, and theyre super expensive, even x4 are expensive.

 

I get future proofing... but 10 years future proofing in tech... i wouldnt want to use a computer from 2016 let alone 2012.

 

 


Ruphus
465 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2993542 8-Nov-2022 16:51
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gbwelly:

 

After reading this thread, surely it's just easier to stay on Windows 10?

 

Just chuck 21H2 on there and you have support until 2027.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not sure where you got your dates from. Windows 10 21H2 is supported for Home and Pro until June 2023.

 

Windows 10 will no longer be supported from Oct 2025.

 

 

 

Unless you're meaning Windows 10 LTSC?


fe31nz

1228 posts

Uber Geek


  #2993680 9-Nov-2022 00:21
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gbwelly:

 

After reading this thread, surely it's just easier to stay on Windows 10?

 

Just chuck 21H2 on there and you have support until 2027.

 

 

When you are planning ahead for the next 10 years, you really do want to factor in upgrading your Windows version - several times in fact.  And the end date for Windows 10 is 2025, as far as I know.  I likely have to do a clean install to get Windows working properly again, but the upgrade process to Win 11 also has a decent chance of doing that, so I would prefer to try the repair via upgrade route to see if it will work - it is much simpler and way less time consuming than a full clean reinstall of everything.


 
 
 

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fe31nz

1228 posts

Uber Geek


  #2993681 9-Nov-2022 00:23
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toejam316:

 

It sounds like you're really overcomplicating something that should be simple.

 

You need a discrete modern system, like a NUC for your daily usage, and to either convert your current system into a server/NAS, which will not magically make it louder and hotter, or build a second system using off the shelf consumer parts that suit your needs and run that as a server/NAS.

 

Even better - if you have a spot, you can put that dedicated storage system in a hidden spot where you don't even need to worry about the sound or heat.

 

 

No, a NAS is not a good option for me as that would be another box running 24/7 and that I would have to do maintenance on.  As I said, the Windows PC is on 24/7 already, so it is fine as a file server.


fe31nz

1228 posts

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  #2993683 9-Nov-2022 00:49
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surfisup1000:

 

The PC market has segmented in a way that doesn't meet your needs. 

 

Get a mobo with 2 ethernet ports and several NVME slots. Get a HDHomerun to use for your tuner  ... it means you only need 2 PCIe slots, for your gfx and for your SAS card. Replace your smaller drives with fewer larger drives so you need fewer sata ports. 

 

Dump one or both of the optical drives. Replace with an external optical if you really need it and are still short on sata ports. 

 

You don't need pcie 5.0 .... go for the best value option and use the money you save to upgrade in 5 years time. 

 

 

I think you are right that the market is moving in a different direction - but I am not sure the motherboard designers are at all right about that decision.  There may well be other people like me who want a motherboard that actually allows the flexibility of installing cards to do new things.  A motherboard with only 2 or 3 PCIe slots is not going to work for me.  I think my moving to 10 Gbit/s Ethernet is likely well before 5 years, and that requires a slot or a very expensive new motherboard.  I am already annoyed every time I copy a file from a fast drive on my Windows box to a fast drive on my MythTV box, as the speed is now limited by the 1 Gbit/s Ethernet, rather than the drive speeds.  Let alone if I am copying from one NVMe SSD to another.

 

I am aware of the HDHomerun option, but I really do not like their insistence on keeping on using a 100 Mbit/s Ethernet interface.  It creates network pain, and in the worst case if you are doing a tuning scan on both tuners at once you may well run out of bandwidth.  If I want to go with network tuners, I can do Sat>IP to my spare tuners on my MythTV box (which has an 8 tuner DVB-T2 card).  But that creates a single point of failure, and the TV recording on my Windows box is for backup purposes to prevent me missing things if my MythTV box is down.  It already has two USB tuners - the PCIe tuner card provides one more tuner as the other tuner on the card died about a year ago.  Three tuners is enough for its backup role.  So another USB tuner would be a better option than an HDHomerun.  Good USB tuners are not so easy to get in NZ now, but you can import them still.  I do not buy tuners that are not Linux compatible, even if I am planning to put it on a Windows system, as I really want lots of tuners if I have my MythTV box's 8 tuner card fail some time.  It needs 5 DVB-T tuners at once several times a week.

 

At the moment, it seems that a PCIe 4.0 motherboard is the best fit for me, so I think that I will be seeing what happens in the Black Friday / Cyber Monday sales.  I know the PCIe 4.0 hardware I would like, but it would be good to get it for $200 or so less than the normal prices if I can.


  #2993689 9-Nov-2022 05:48
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you are in the very small minority so yes motherboard designers know what they are doing.

 

you want something with all the bells and whistles for cheap, its not happening these days.

 

what you are doing is very bespoke and most people have moved to streaming/on demand options


gbwelly
1243 posts

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  #2993694 9-Nov-2022 07:35
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Ruphus:

 

Unless you're meaning Windows 10 LTSC?

 

 

Ah yes, you are right, I've been dealing with Windows 10 Enterprise so much lately I forgot about home users








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