Router / switch advice (help me put an end to my dithering)

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mdf

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Topic # 228869 26-Jan-2018 13:09

I'm continuing to procrastinate over the best home networking set up (it's been at least 6 months now). I suspect I know the best answer to this (the expensive one) but really feel like I should get confirmation.

Current set up is HG659 --> 8 port POE unmanaged switch --> 3x WAPs + various ethernet.

The immediate issue is replacing the switch. Half my stuff isn't plugged in (or is plugged in to the HG659 direct) since I don't have enough ports. The HG659 32 device limit is nearing too and that should be upgraded now/in time (I know I've asked about the router bit at least twice before but analysing *everything* to the nth degree seems to be my thing).

I'm currently thinking 16 ports would be just enough for my assorted stuff/junk, so I really need a 24 port switch. I'm also sold on the idea of getting a managed switch so I can separate out via VLAN trusted stuff and untrusted junk (the WAPs already support multiple VLANs so can put wireless clients on to trusted and non-trusted VLANs too).

As I see it, the options are:

(A) 24 port, managed, POE switch - starts around $400. This is probably the best solution, but also the priciest and will totally clear out my budget for other projects. I also really only use the POE for the WAPs. CCTV is on the cards at some stage but as I understand it, most NVRs supply their own POE.

(B) 24 port, managed, non POE switch plus multi port POE injector - but no cheaper than option A and more clunky.

(C) 24 port, managed, non POE switch plus individual POE injectors that came with the WAPs - much cheaper (more like $200-$230), but will be cable proliferation.

(D) 24 port, managed, non POE switch plus keep the existing 8 port unmanaged switch just for the WAPs. From comments I've picked up on, daisy chaining switches can lead to network issues, and (I assume) will constrain the wireless <--> wired network connections to 1Gbps max since everything will need to go down a single cable. Would it make a difference between router --> switch 1 --> switch 2 (in "series") vs router eth1 --> switch 1; router eth2 --> switch 2 (in "parallel" - I know for the parallel one I would need a router with a switch; bad idea to use an EdgeRouter Lite with bridged networks).

Thoughts - in particular whether saving $200 but dealing with a mess of cables (i.e. option B) would be your go to? What about performance of A/B vs D?

Or option E - go blow it all on a fancy drill press and dither for another 6 months (happy happy drilling time).

Benoire

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Reply # 1947145 26-Jan-2018 13:24

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I'm a big fan of the Unifi range by Ubiquiti. Just got up and running a Unifi Security Gateway, 24 port non-POE switch and Long Range AC access Point, all run of my Unifi controller. I will be adding more, such as the 8 port POE for AP and cameras and perhaps the 10G 16 port SFP+ switch later. I would have picked up the POE 24 port but due to the location of my gear I didn't want my security system connections house in a more accessible place.

Depending on how many POE you need, the adapters can sometimes cost more than just getting the POE switch itself, but you'd need to compare the costs.. I'd probably get the POE 24 managed for around $500 and be done with it if that is your need.

michaelmurfy

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Reply # 1947148 26-Jan-2018 13:28

First off - I'll have an Edgerouter Lite coming up soon for sale (I sent you a message via Signal) then grab one of these: https://www.gowifi.co.nz/switches/es-24-lite.html

Flick me a message when you get a spare chance. I'll sort you out. Also need to sort out your Microserver.

Michael Murphy | https://murfy.nz
A quick guide to picking the right ISP | The Router Guide | Community UniFi Cloud Controller | Ubiquiti Edgerouter Tutorial

mdf

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Reply # 1947245 26-Jan-2018 16:59

michaelmurfy:

First off - I'll have an Edgerouter Lite coming up soon for sale (I sent you a message via Signal) then grab one of these: https://www.gowifi.co.nz/switches/es-24-lite.html

Flick me a message when you get a spare chance. I'll sort you out. Also need to sort out your Microserver.

@michaelmurfy - I have just realised I never signed into Signal on getting a new phone (so that's possibly a few messages I've missed...). Any chance you could resend it? I'm guessing you're upgrading to ER4?

That looks like a nice switch, though it is quite spendy and doesn't have POE; you'd use this with separate POE injectors?

fe31nz

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Reply # 1947331 26-Jan-2018 20:44

One consideration you have not mentioned is noise - larger switches and POE switches normally require fan cooling, and if they are in the usual rackmountable format, that means small fans and usually a fair bit of noise. If the switch is going in a cupboard or the garage that may not be a problem, but inside the house the sound level and sound quality can be very aggravating. The ES-24-LITE switch is one that does not have fans.

mdf

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Reply # 1947349 26-Jan-2018 22:13

Noise isn't a huge issue. It's in a cupboard in an office. There's a server in there too with a fun and spinning drives so fan noise should be fine.

jnimmo

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Reply # 1947350 26-Jan-2018 22:37

Connecting two switches isn't exactly daisy-chaining switches, so don't get hung up on that. That's really when you get to 3+ switches, the optimal design would be from A>B & A>C instead of A>B>C.

That aside, if you can squeeze anything that needs access to the untrusted network (router, access points, cameras), there is an option E

(E) 8 port managed PoE switch for the APs, connection to the router, and connection to any old unmanaged switch for your trusted devices (just use your current PoE one to start with)

Your real world performance will be identical with all of these options. Keep the cabling to a minimum and stay away from the injectors :)

EDIT:
What about this Dell PowerConnect 6224P for $369-380 free shipping. Layer 3 (so you wouldn't even need the ERL really until you get UFB), managed, PoE, even supports 10G SFPs if you wanted to really go overkill with your server. Can't find the idle power usage though

Was going to recommend this HP but that model consumes 90+ watts just idling!

jnimmo

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Reply # 1947410 27-Jan-2018 08:57

But if you think 16 ports is just enough, there are great prices $250-280 for TP Link/Netgear Managed 16port PoE switches on PBTech at the moment. Keep the current 8 port somewhere you might plug in multiple devices (on the same VLAN) in case you get low on ports

richms

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Reply # 1947448 27-Jan-2018 10:02

I have the 16 port unifi switch as my "main" one in the cupboard under the stairs. It will do for now until ones with 10GBE become cheaper. I really dont need to have 10GBE but when I finally get the fiber on here, it will be silly to have the lan as the bottleneck so will revisit it then if it really does bother me.

It vlan config is a little weird, but once you make configs for how you want ports you just choose that config on the port configuration rather than just a list or tickboxes like other switches, It keeps power on during reboots which most switches dont seem to do, so you dont have to deal with your APs rebooting just because you firmware update the switch.

I also have a few of the US-8 ones out behind games consoles and on workbenches etc. Also the same vlan config weirdness but works great to get things like the HDMI extenders on their own vlans so they dont saturate the normal lan with their broadcast traffic etc.

Richard rich.ms

mdf

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Reply # 1947552 27-Jan-2018 14:56

jnimmo:

Connecting two switches isn't exactly daisy-chaining switches, so don't get hung up on that. That's really when you get to 3+ switches, the optimal design would be from A>B & A>C instead of A>B>C.

That aside, if you can squeeze anything that needs access to the untrusted network (router, access points, cameras), there is an option E

(E) 8 port managed PoE switch for the APs, connection to the router, and connection to any old unmanaged switch for your trusted devices (just use your current PoE one to start with)

Your real world performance will be identical with all of these options. Keep the cabling to a minimum and stay away from the injectors :)

EDIT:
What about this Dell PowerConnect 6224P for $369-380 free shipping. Layer 3 (so you wouldn't even need the ERL really until you get UFB), managed, PoE, even supports 10G SFPs if you wanted to really go overkill with your server. Can't find the idle power usage though

Was going to recommend this HP but that model consumes 90+ watts just idling!

Thanks for this - super helpful. So if I've understood your points rights, I could get a router with a switch built in. eth1 (say) of that router can go to the existing POE dumb switch. That switch will just have the WAPs. The WAPs are able to assign all clients to the appropriate VLAN. eth2 of that router can go to a new managed switch, which will assign the wired clients to the appropriate VLAN. PBTech has a 24 port managed switches for $180 (TPLink) or $230 (Netgear), so about a third of the price of a 24 port POE managed switch.

Thoughts about whether this setup is okay? On reflection, most of my traffic will either be (wired + wireless) clients <--> internet, or wired clients <--> other wired clients. There will be some traffic between wireless clients and wired clients, but nothing particularly data intensive.

richms

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Reply # 1947554 27-Jan-2018 14:58

Dont count on passing vlan tags thru the switch in a router, they internally use vlans to seperate out wan and lan in many cases, so you would have to configure the ports to allow those vlans, and they give you no access to do that on stock firmware.

Richard rich.ms

michaelmurfy

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Reply # 1947642 28-Jan-2018 00:42

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To save money it is well worth just grabbing a cheaper TP-Link managed switch (that is all I've got personally) along with either using PoE injectors or a smaller PoE switch. I wouldn't get too hung up on daisy chaining the smaller PoE switch from your main switch as I don't think you're going to be transferring Gigabit (combined) via all your access points at once.

The TP-Link smart switches are very basic but do the job at passing through VLAN's. Example - I've got an IoT VLAN, Guest VLAN, a VLAN for IPv6 traffic and a VLAN for trusted traffic - all set up with my Cambium E600 access point with different SSID's.

I personally think the Dell is very very overkill for you. Just go cheap and cheerful, lets see if we can get you some new tools for your garage in the process.

Michael Murphy | https://murfy.nz
A quick guide to picking the right ISP | The Router Guide | Community UniFi Cloud Controller | Ubiquiti Edgerouter Tutorial

jnimmo

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Reply # 1947675 28-Jan-2018 08:51

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mdf:

Thanks for this - super helpful. So if I've understood your points rights, I could get a router with a switch built in. eth1 (say) of that router can go to the existing POE dumb switch. That switch will just have the WAPs. The WAPs are able to assign all clients to the appropriate VLAN. eth2 of that router can go to a new managed switch, which will assign the wired clients to the appropriate VLAN. PBTech has a 24 port managed switches for $180 (TPLink) or $230 (Netgear), so about a third of the price of a 24 port POE managed switch.

Thoughts about whether this setup is okay? On reflection, most of my traffic will either be (wired + wireless) clients <--> internet, or wired clients <--> other wired clients. There will be some traffic between wireless clients and wired clients, but nothing particularly data intensive.

No need to do that even,

Can just go from eth1 to port 1 of the managed switch (for example), then port 2 of the managed switch can also be setup as a trunk port, tagging any VLANs you need to the PoE switch

(Copy or edit this drawing here)

mdf

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Reply # 1947806 28-Jan-2018 11:39

Legends. Thanks guys - exactly the answer I was after!

Time to go shopping.