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pdh



108 posts

Master Geek


# 255946 8-Sep-2019 08:25
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I'm looking for opinions that this is or will become legal in NZ.
Obviously any individual device will need certification - but is the concept legal ?

 

Much of the world doesn't require a mechanical switch on each mains power point (wall socket). True for 240 V countries eg: Spain, UK as well as (AFAIK) all of the 100-120 V world. Traditionally, NZ has required switches.

 

Moving into the future, with App/voice controlled devices... people are going to become interested in switching a power point wirelessly. For example, I have about 8 devices (TV, Amp, Voda box, media devices & hub) which I turn off remotely when not needing them. Motivation is surge protection & parasitic losses over days of non-use.

 

Now, I do this legally by plugging a smart switch into the standard kiwi power point - and leaving the PP's mechanical switch in the 'on' position. So, the wireless switching is 'downstream' of the PP's 'legal' switch. In this way, wirelessly switching this circuit 'on' does not over-ride the mechanical swith (which never moves). So, legally, no problem.

 

In a new house build, there are points I would choose to automate. To do so tidily, I would use a double PP with wireless switches. Such powerpoints are easily available from China (using our plug geometry) - but the inherent manual/'mechanical' switch is over-ridden by the wireless 'on' command. No 'off' mode is mechanically enforced.

 

Checking the exhibitors at the Auckland home show yesterday, there was exactly one double power point with wireless (WiFi) capability on show - arrived 2 weeks ago. They had no idea it might be problematic. The PDL stand's tech guy said their Zigbee dimmer/switch is expected in February and he's seen a mock-up of a Zigbee dual power-point. But PDL's bigger market is Australia. PDL were exhibiting two Bluetooth wall switches (for lighting circuits) - but they had no Bluetooth PP.

 

Anyone got any deeper / behind-the-scenes understanding of this ?


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1906 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2312622 8-Sep-2019 09:08
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You can get outlets in NZ without switches.

Well, still switched but it’s done by the plug being pushed in.

1126 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2312627 8-Sep-2019 09:26
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Unswitched is a nono is seems for anything but hard to reach stationary appliances. Switched by insertion seems ok tho:

 

 

 

AS/NZS 3000:2007

 

4.4.4 Switching device
4.4.4.1 General
Each socket-outlet shall be individually controlled by a separate
switch that complies with either AS/NZS 3133 or AS 60947.3 and
operates in all active conductors.
Switches controlling socket-outlets shall comply with Clauses 4.4.4.2
and 4.4.4.3.
Exceptions:
1 A single switch may be used for the control of two socket-outlets
located immediately adjacent to each other.
2 A socket-outlet that is rated at not more than 10 A, installed for the
connection of a fixed or stationary appliance or a luminaire and that is
not readily accessible for other purposes, need not be controlled by a
switch.
3 A socket-outlet that is switched by the insertion and withdrawal of the
plug shall be deemed to meet the requirements of this Clause. 





Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

 
 
 
 


2567 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2312672 8-Sep-2019 09:43
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Beccara:

Unswitched is a nono is seems for anything but hard to reach stationary appliances. Switched by insertion seems ok tho:


 


AS/NZS 3000:2007


4.4.4 Switching device
4.4.4.1 General
Each socket-outlet shall be individually controlled by a separate
switch that complies with either AS/NZS 3133 or AS 60947.3 and
operates in all active conductors.
Switches controlling socket-outlets shall comply with Clauses 4.4.4.2
and 4.4.4.3.
Exceptions:
1 A single switch may be used for the control of two socket-outlets
located immediately adjacent to each other.
2 A socket-outlet that is rated at not more than 10 A, installed for the
connection of a fixed or stationary appliance or a luminaire and that is
not readily accessible for other purposes, need not be controlled by a
switch.
3 A socket-outlet that is switched by the insertion and withdrawal of the
plug shall be deemed to meet the requirements of this Clause. 



Since in electrical circuits latching relays can also be a ‘switch’ at what point in the refs does it say it must be a MANUAL switch.... as far as I can see a switch is simply a way to isolate an output by creating a disconnection in the circuit, which is done equally effectively either wirelessly or physically 🤔

pdh



108 posts

Master Geek


  # 2312691 8-Sep-2019 10:09
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Presumably, the breaker in the master cabinet is not a 'separate switch'.

 

In my 1993 build (Auckland), my sparkie 'stretched a point' and installed an in-floor powerpoint for a standard lamp in the middle of the lounge. He used a metal fitting (with a hinged lid) that he said was common in car dealerships - for the showroom floors. This was switched with a wall-mounted light switch about 3m away.

 

Anyone know of similar work-arounds ?


1126 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2312693 8-Sep-2019 10:14
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If you can find a relay box that complies with AS/NZS 3133 or AS 60947.3 AND also have a control for that relay close by you should be good:

 

 

 

 

 

4.4.4.3 Location and marking
Each switch, or means of operating the switch, for a socket-outlet shall
be—
(a) as close as practicable to the socket-outlet; and
(b) marked to indicate the socket-outlet(s) or the connected electrical
equipment that it controls.

 


Exception: Marking is not required where the socket-outlet controlled is
obvious because of the location of the switch.
Where the switch is located remote from the socket-outlet it shall be—
(i) installed in a convenient and readily accessible position as close as
practicable to the socket-outlet; and
(ii) marked in accordance with—
(A) the location of the switch shall be clearly and permanently
marked at the socket-outlet; and
(B) both the switch and the socket-outlet shall be provided with
legible, indelible and uniform labels indicating their relationship.
Exception: Marking is not required where the socket-outlet is—
(a) located more than 2.5 m above the ground, floor or platform; and
(b) provided for the connection of a specific lamp, luminaire or
appliance; and 
(c) not accessible for general use. 





Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

616 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2312695 8-Sep-2019 10:17
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"Such powerpoints are easily available from China (using our plug geometry)"

 

These can not be legally used unless they have a valid SDoC. https://www.ideal.co.nz/contact/faq


601 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2312696 8-Sep-2019 10:23
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Also note that there are slight differences between the china plug type and ours. Pin lengths are a little different, and the china version is installed with the earth facing upwards.


 
 
 
 


neb

1187 posts

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  # 2312741 8-Sep-2019 10:47
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pdh:

Moving into the future, with App/voice controlled devices... people are going to become interested in switching a power point wirelessly.

 

 

Particularly Russians, Romanians, Ukrainians, etc. It's OK though, for a small payment in BTC or WMZ they'll promise to leave you alone for awhile.

 

 

There is one nice thing about physical switches, it's the one thing a botnet can't interfere with.

22529 posts

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  # 2312742 8-Sep-2019 10:49
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They make ones with the correct box and spacing, but as NZ requires the importer to do the work of preparing SDOC etc, them selling them on aliexpress is largely useless other than as samples.

 

There are off brand controllable powerpoints available in AU from one of their big box stores which are probably the same as one of the ones you can get off aliexpress, but they have done the complaince paperwork - basically market protection BS for large companies to justify doubling of prices on stuff.





Richard rich.ms

2999 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2312769 8-Sep-2019 11:38
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pdh:

Presumably, the breaker in the master cabinet is not a 'separate switch'.


In my 1993 build (Auckland), my sparkie 'stretched a point' and installed an in-floor powerpoint for a standard lamp in the middle of the lounge. He used a metal fitting (with a hinged lid) that he said was common in car dealerships - for the showroom floors. This was switched with a wall-mounted light switch about 3m away.


Anyone know of similar work-arounds ?



The breaker is the "isolator". Isolation has a specific meaning and is more than just an on/off switch. If the standard lamp plugs in the socket doesn't need a switch so there's no point to stretch. You can put a remote switch in for convenience and standard lamps usually have their own "functional" switches.

An electric stove hob is one thing that might plug in that needs a readily accessible switch mounted to one side of it.

1906 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2313038 8-Sep-2019 15:43
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MadEngineer: You can get outlets in NZ without switches.

Well, still switched but it’s done by the plug being pushed in.
adding image now that i'm at a pc:

 


1126 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2313141 8-Sep-2019 18:02
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I think that is about a close as your going to get to what your after legally





Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

2999 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2313341 9-Sep-2019 05:27
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I retract my ealier post re sockets not needing a functional switch. The socket posted by MadEngineer has a subtle difference in that it has a switch but it is operated by pushing the plug in. I'm not sure what practical difference that makes compared to the earlier 600 series without the plug actuated switch. If you plug in a belt sander switched on you'll still get a Tim the toolman moment.

pdh



108 posts

Master Geek


  # 2313347 9-Sep-2019 06:45
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Thanks MadEng - I hadn't heard of that PDL unit.

 

Although interesting, it does nothing for automation.
Unless I program a robot to yank the plug - which would work as well with a standard NZ PP.
I'm not seeing any glimmer of hope here.

 

It looks as though the deal-breaker is this wording (from Beccara):
"...controlled by a separate switch that complies  
with either AS/NZS 3133 or AS 60947.3 and 
operates in all active conductors."

 

So, we can never be allowed to use this sort of device ?
(from Amazon Australia - URL way too long)
(Yes, I realise this would need an SDoC - but that's not the point. 
The point is that it never _could_ recieve an SDoC - because the concept fails our code.)

 

AmazAus Zigbee Switch


pdh



108 posts

Master Geek


  # 2313348 9-Sep-2019 06:47
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