New build - making LED lighting smart and dimmable

Forums › Gadgets, robotics, home automation, electronics (including wearables) › New build - making LED lighting smart and dimmable

allio

885 posts

Ultimate Geek

#285778 17-May-2021 16:34

We're at the stage of customising/signing off the electrics in our new build and I am trying to get my head around how best to proceed.

What I want is to have as much of the lighting in the house "smart" (i.e. automatable) and dimmable as possible. But I'd like every light to also be capable of seamless manual control from an ordinary looking light switch (i.e. avoid one of those situations where you have to tape "DO NOT USE" labels over your switches for your kids/wife/guests, because once the power is cut then the bulb is no longer remotely controllable). It seems like the best option for doing this is to install smart dimmers behind the light switches - something like this. The result is that otherwise "dumb" bulbs become both smart and dimmable, with the additional option of adding smart bulbs if you want fine-grained control over hue/colour etc.

I'm currently looking at the electrical plan and the main question I have is whether you require one of these switches for every light circuit (as opposed to every light switch). There are many switches on the plan that control multiple light circuits. For example, one switch at the top of the stairs that controls stair LED lighting, lounge downlights and dining room downlights. Both the stair LEDs and the dining room lights are also controlled by other switches elsewhere in the room (i.e. they are 2 way circuits).

Are my suspicions correct that I would need one of these dimmers at both ends of every circuit? If so it seems completely cost-prohibitive, and also probably physically impossible to fit multiple dimmer switches behind a single wallplate. By rough count I would need around 20 dimmer modules to cover the house, and that is leaving out garage, wardrobes, bathrooms, LED strip lighting and external lights. I'd also likely need dedicated switches for each circuit rather than being able to have 2-4 gang switches - I anticipate wife acceptance issues with this.

I'd happily forego the dimming capability on some circuits to keep costs down while retaining the ability to automate/remote control but the switching-only model seems to be just as expensive.

Any general thoughts/suggestions appreciated also. Is there a better approach? The build is off the plans (i.e. I'm not developing it) so I'm limited in proposing any large structural changes - I really need to work with the plans that have already been drawn up as much as possible.

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364 posts

Ultimate Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2708522 17-May-2021 16:41

The range of Shelley products available will cover what you want I think. There has been previous discussion on this including that they have NZ certification and can be sourced locally here

Shelly Wifi smart home devices now with AU/NZ Certification

and

It's finally here!! - Shelly Dimmer

mattenz

190 posts

Master Geek

#2708523 17-May-2021 16:42

In a new build I'd probably go for a more integrated low voltage system, but it would mean a bit of planning.

allio

885 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2708527 17-May-2021 16:48

morrisk:

The range of Shelley products available will cover what you want I think. There has been previous discussion on this including that they have NZ certification and can be sourced locally here

Shelly Wifi smart home devices now with AU/NZ Certification

and

It's finally here!! - Shelly Dimmer

I spotted that in my seach - this, right? At least it helps with the cost and size issues as it's both half the size and half the cost of the Aeotech.

Given the recent certification I'm worried that the electrician won't be as keen to use them, but I can ask. I'd also probably prefer something zigbee/zwave to wifi but that's not a dealbreaker.

Integrated low-voltage sounds like the ideal way to do it but I suspect I'd either not be allowed at all (too far away from original spec), or would have to fund a total redesign. Doubt I'll get that over the line. But if this was a build I was designing from scratch I would certainly be keen. Seems a bit kludgy to be sticking a device behind every switch instead of having one central location, but I think that's what I'm going to have to do. I'll add it to the list of questions for the electrician though.

openmedia

3324 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#2708540 17-May-2021 17:41

I'm after a similar dimming capability, but one where I can have a wall dimmer in addition to wifi/smart support.

Effectively something similar to

- https://www.instructables.com/Shelly-Dimmer-Wall-Switch-With-Rotary-Knob-and-Hom/

Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC as a Technology Evangelist and Portfolio Architect. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.

morrisk

364 posts

Ultimate Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2708543 17-May-2021 17:49

Yes that was what I thought. I have not had experience with the unit you have linked - only the Shelly 1 and I have it controlling a panel heater with home automation using an Eve temperature sensor. Through the use of a Hoobs raspberry pi unit, the automation is able to managed through Apple HomeKit so I have both lights and heating all visible and controlled with Apple Home. This allows remote control with my phone and also my wife has access from her phone as well.

Still experimenting with all the possibilities but have automations running that mean when nobody is at home (or the last person leaves the house) the heating switches off and when someone returns it reactivates but all dependent on the current temperature and time of day. Have different temperature ranges set for evening and daytime and everything off overnight.

Not sure that I understand quite how everything is interacting or where the "thinking" is happening but so far so good

Arsonist

31 posts

Geek

#2708818 18-May-2021 07:51

I rarely see it mentioned on here, but why not install PDL iconic sockets and switches in your new house, and use the Wiser Smart Home dimmers and smart sockets. I feel they tick all your boxes. Plus its no extra hassle for your electrician to install these as part of his fitoff.

https://www.pdl.co.nz/products/wiser-smart-home?backto=%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dwiser

Also the PDL youtube page has some good quick videos to highlight some features.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbuGAs1FQHiXz5AIIpuhqXg

mulac

155 posts

Master Geek

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#2708821 18-May-2021 08:10

The Wiser Room stuff is Bluetooth low energy, meaning you need a Bluetooth device near it at all times to use it, and it’s more expensive than the Shelly route. I have both and would definitely go shelly.

I’ve written a library for controlling the wiser room dimmers via MQTT and a raspberry Pi, but is a lot more involved than just installing Shellys. (https://github.com/CalumOchkas/PDL-Clipsal-BLEDimmer2MQTT)

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chevrolux

4962 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#2708836 18-May-2021 09:07

Shelly devices are the best and easiest way to make LEDs dimmable these days - IMO.

Zwave has little annoying connectivity issues, requires an extra hub, and is expensive.
Bluetooth just isn't an option IMO unless you are, again, installing an extra "hub" of some sort.

I would suggest that, in a new build, a decent amount of thought should be put in to the IP network (router, switches, WiFi APs, etc) and its just as important as the electrical and plumbing these days. So why not take advantage of that and use it for the home automation also.

Edit: And it's one device per circuit. You can wire in multiple switches to a single Shelly device.

chevrolux

4962 posts

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Inactive user

#2708837 18-May-2021 09:10

openmedia:
I'm after a similar dimming capability, but one where I can have a wall dimmer in addition to wifi/smart support.

Effectively something similar to

- https://www.instructables.com/Shelly-Dimmer-Wall-Switch-With-Rotary-Knob-and-Hom/

Are you not happy with the standard momentary push button support on the shelly? It's just "press and hold" to dim up/down.

Yoban

447 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2708840 18-May-2021 09:38

Any thought of using KNX technology https://www.knx.org/knx-en/for-offices/real-life-examples/ and https://aoteagroup.nz/what-we-do/communications/smart-home-automation/. I have a colleague at work looking at this stuff.

Certainly not as cheap as shelly's, but robust and capable.

openmedia

3324 posts

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Trusted

#2708950 18-May-2021 12:38

chevrolux:
openmedia:

I'm after a similar dimming capability, but one where I can have a wall dimmer in addition to wifi/smart support.

Effectively something similar to

- https://www.instructables.com/Shelly-Dimmer-Wall-Switch-With-Rotary-Knob-and-Hom/

Are you not happy with the standard momentary push button support on the shelly? It's just "press and hold" to dim up/down.

Nice. I wasn't aware they could support something like this

- https://www.showtechnix.co.nz/store/pdl-600-series-switch-module-momentary-push-button-20a-pdl681mt10pb/?gclid=CjwKCAjwqIiFBhAHEiwANg9szshrFTikLyMNim3L6sgZ49T2caQpiQ1J3ZtZJ4QDC4sozkXhi-cqhxoC_eYQAvD_BwE

Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC as a Technology Evangelist and Portfolio Architect. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.

rogercruse

644 posts

Ultimate Geek

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#2708983 18-May-2021 13:26

mattenz: In a new build I'd probably go for a more integrated low voltage system, but it would mean a bit of planning.

That's what we did. And have a locally developed system that doesn't cost an arm and a leg!.

All our lights are LEDs downlights running at 24 volts and are ultra thin so no huge holes in the ceiling. Plus the wall switches are smart and can control the more than just the lights.

See www.atatouch.co.nz for more info.

Please Note: I'm just a happy customer, no other connection.

chevrolux

4962 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#2708986 18-May-2021 13:29

openmedia:

Nice. I wasn't aware they could support something like this

That's the exact modules I use. They look great, work perfectly if you don't want to ask Alexa (or open Home Assistant) to dim the lights, and the illumination is super handy for places like the lounge and hallway at night.

SumnerBoy

2074 posts

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#2709022 18-May-2021 14:45

Yoban:

Any thought of using KNX technology https://www.knx.org/knx-en/for-offices/real-life-examples/ and https://aoteagroup.nz/what-we-do/communications/smart-home-automation/. I have a colleague at work looking at this stuff.

Certainly not as cheap as shelly's, but robust and capable.

This is what I am planning to use on my new build.

allio

885 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2709597 19-May-2021 12:24

Arsonist:

I rarely see it mentioned on here, but why not install PDL iconic sockets and switches in your new house, and use the Wiser Smart Home dimmers and smart sockets. I feel they tick all your boxes. Plus its no extra hassle for your electrician to install these as part of his fitoff.

https://www.pdl.co.nz/products/wiser-smart-home?backto=%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dwiser

Also the PDL youtube page has some good quick videos to highlight some features.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbuGAs1FQHiXz5AIIpuhqXg

Thanks for this. According to the brochure it supports either Bluetooth LE or Zigbee. There's also some Homeassistant support, though it looks kind of unoffical. Probably not my top pick for that reason but having a single integrated system from a big NZ supplier might make it easier to get across the line with the electrician. Really helpful suggestion, thanks.

chevrolux: Shelly devices are the best and easiest way to make LEDs dimmable these days - IMO.

Zwave has little annoying connectivity issues, requires an extra hub, and is expensive.
Bluetooth just isn't an option IMO unless you are, again, installing an extra "hub" of some sort.

I would suggest that, in a new build, a decent amount of thought should be put in to the IP network (router, switches, WiFi APs, etc) and its just as important as the electrical and plumbing these days. So why not take advantage of that and use it for the home automation also.

Edit: And it's one device per circuit. You can wire in multiple switches to a single Shelly device.

I am putting plenty of thought into the IP network, believe me! I will have a centralised system with ceiling-mounted WAPs on every floor, so wifi should be reliable. It just seems appealing to me to not have to have dozens of switches, sockets and bulbs sitting on my wifi network, though I would definitely segregate them on a separate SSID/VLAN if going that route.

Can you control all your Shelly devices simultaneously? I would hate to have to log in and change the wifi password or SSID 20 times if I make a network change.

In terms of the one device per circuit thing - am I correct that if I have a 3-gang switch with (e.g.) lounge downlights, dining room pendant and stair LEDs (each on their own circuit) I would need three Shellys behind the switch to make them all smart and dimmable? And this would likely mean using 2/3 separate switches and faceplates rather than a single 3-gang switch, because of a lack of room behind it?

I can't imagine the scenario in which I'd wire multiple switches to a single Shelly - isn't each switch always going to control a separate circuit?

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