2Degrees, Bad Communication & Debt Collection

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2394 posts

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#690122 23-Sep-2012 12:22

Elpie: If you're correct that 2Degrees when contacted (after referring your matter to the debt collectors) asserted that you must go and talk to Dun & Bradstreet then I'd argue it's not just a case of bad form, it's a case of somebody breaching your entitlements under the Privacy Act.

One of the Information Privacy Principles under the Act (and this is coming from a real lawyer) is that you're entitled to access and correct personal information held about you. 2Degrees cannot possibly have referred you to the debt collectors without holding some proof of debt. For that matter, if someone says you owe them money, common law and basic decency requires that they show some proof of debt.

I'd encourage you to not just let the 2Degrees complaints people handle this. Take it to the Telecommunications Disputes Resolution services if you are in any way still dissatisfied and go to the media if need be. Stuffing up someone's credit file when they appear to have done nothing wrong is totally unacceptable. Seeing this and other examples that Mauricio has linked to confirms my previous view that 2D is to be avoided at all costs.

2Degrees: if what the OP is asserting is true, you really might want to start becoming a bit more compliant with the laws of the land. Oh and I guess fixing up ongoing issues like this in good time would help too.

Elpie

1304 posts

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#690656 24-Sep-2012 15:03

I'd contacted Consumer Affairs first thing this morning and was told that creditors cannot refuse to give customers information about their accounts and that even when accounts are sold on to debt collection agencies the company must still retain documentation and is obliged to send copies if requested.

However, before I could do anything more about all this 2DegreesCare got it all sorted out. Apparently, despite what I'd been told, there was money owing. It would have been helpful if I'd known about it & could therefore have paid it. 2Degrees has withdrawn it from Dun & Bradstreet and in a gesture of goodwill has removed the debt.

I understand they are looking at their systems to avoid this happening to anyone else.

I would like to thank 2DegreesCare for his help with this matter. I had a horrible weekend, worrying about it, and am pleased its now put to rest. Thank you all for your input & suggestions too.

DonGould

3892 posts

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#690659 24-Sep-2012 15:10

Elpie: I understand they are looking at their systems to avoid this happening to anyone else.

I'd like to hear back from 2Deg about what is being done and when the work will be in place to ensure that this doesn't happen again.

2DegreesCare, this time I'd like to see some clear answers, with dates and details and not just a repeat of the rhetoric that MF linked to in previous posts.

I am not interested in knowing how it comes about. I'm interested to know how your company is ensuring that customers are properly informed of debt before they are refereed to D&B.

I am sure that I'm not the only person who would like some clear and direct answers.

D

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2degreesCare

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2degrees

#690699 24-Sep-2012 16:07

DonGould:
Elpie: I understand they are looking at their systems to avoid this happening to anyone else.

I'd like to hear back from 2Deg about what is being done and when the work will be in place to ensure that this doesn't happen again.

2DegreesCare, this time I'd like to see some clear answers, with dates and details and not just a repeat of the rhetoric that MF linked to in previous posts.

I am not interested in knowing how it comes about. I'm interested to know how your company is ensuring that customers are properly informed of debt before they are refereed to D&B.

I am sure that I'm not the only person who would like some clear and direct answers.

D

Hi Don

We identified a defect on our system with customers that terminated their account with us and left our network still owing on their final bill not receiving any notification.

We have raised this with our vendors to automatically send these notifications. In the meantime we are manually sending an email to any customer that's terminated their account regardless if they've left 2degrees notifying them of any amount owed. This is also logged in our system so we can see when notification was sent.

Unfortunately this wasn't the case when the OP terminated her account and left 2degrees.

Cheers
^POB

DonGould

3892 posts

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#690768 24-Sep-2012 18:15

2DegreesCare:
We identified a defect on our system with customers that terminated their account with us and left our network still owing on their final bill not receiving any notification.

We have raised this with our vendors to automatically send these notifications. In the meantime we are manually sending an email to any customer that's terminated their account regardless if they've left 2degrees notifying them of any amount owed. This is also logged in our system so we can see when notification was sent.

Unfortunately this wasn't the case when the OP terminated her account and left 2degrees.

Cheers
^POB

Clearly an automated system is also just sending the customers to D&B.

Is this still the case or is there now a person actually double checking the accounts and making personal contact with the customer before the account is handed over to D&B?

Also, when the account is handed over, is a reasonable amount of information passed to D&B so that they can answer questions for the customer? Clearly this was not done in the case of the OP.

Also, have the helpdesk systems/processes been changed to ensure that HD staff have access to historic account information held by the company so that people can gain access to their information on request? Again, clearly not the case for the OP which caused her some distress.

D

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2degreesCare

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2degrees

#690772 24-Sep-2012 18:28

DonGould:
2DegreesCare:
We identified a defect on our system with customers that terminated their account with us and left our network still owing on their final bill not receiving any notification.

We have raised this with our vendors to automatically send these notifications. In the meantime we are manually sending an email to any customer that's terminated their account regardless if they've left 2degrees notifying them of any amount owed. This is also logged in our system so we can see when notification was sent.

Unfortunately this wasn't the case when the OP terminated her account and left 2degrees.

Cheers
^POB

Clearly an automated system is also just sending the customers to D&B.

Is this still the case or is there now a person actually double checking the accounts and making personal contact with the customer before the account is handed over to D&B?

Also, when the account is handed over, is a reasonable amount of information passed to D&B so that they can answer questions for the customer? Clearly this was not done in the case of the OP.

Also, have the helpdesk systems/processes been changed to ensure that HD staff have access to historic account information held by the company so that people can gain access to their information on request? Again, clearly not the case for the OP which caused her some distress.

D

Our Customer Care team can see a record of when these notifications have been sent out by our Billing and Collection team and agents have visibility of what is owed on the account as 'unbilled balance'.

Unfortunately in the OP's case the agent that sent her the email hadn't checked this and sent an email saying she had nothing to pay. This has been fed back to their manager so they're aware.

^POB

richms

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#690778 24-Sep-2012 18:34

Would those notifications be the ones that I got that were leaking someone elses personal information and being sent in a horridly insecure manner?

Also 2degrees should read up on what legal tender is. I was told by someone on the phone that they would refuse to accept cash from me if I turned up at the office. Had to reset up a bill payment to clear my final bill with my aweful time being an on account 2degrees customer.

Richard rich.ms

Equinox IT

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DonGould

3892 posts

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#690827 24-Sep-2012 20:38

2DegreesCare:
DonGould: Clearly an automated system is also just sending the customers to D&B.

Is this still the case or is there now a person actually double checking the accounts and making personal contact with the customer before the account is handed over to D&B?

Also, when the account is handed over, is a reasonable amount of information passed to D&B so that they can answer questions for the customer? Clearly this was not done in the case of the OP.

Also, have the helpdesk systems/processes been changed to ensure that HD staff have access to historic account information held by the company so that people can gain access to their information on request? Again, clearly not the case for the OP which caused her some distress.

D

Our Customer Care team can see a record of when these notifications have been sent out by our Billing and Collection team and agents have visibility of what is owed on the account as 'unbilled balance'.

Unfortunately in the OP's case the agent that sent her the email hadn't checked this and sent an email saying she had nothing to pay. This has been fed back to their manager so they're aware.

^POB

I don't feel you actually answered my questions which were related to what happens now and in the future.

The OP was quite clear in her opening post that on calling your call center they were not able to see the information as her case had been handed to D&B.

You responded by telling me that "Unfortunately in the OP's case the agent that sent her the email hadn't checked this and sent an email saying she had nothing to pay."

(Not interested in why the mistaken emails were sent, I am interested in why the OP was not able to use your call center to fix this problem and had to resort to putting her situation in the Geekzone public space to get it addressed properly.)

However, I apologize because my question was obviously not clear.

I am interested to better understand what action has been taken to ensure that helpdesk staff have access to information when a customer calls to follow up these problems, not why the problem occurred for the OP.

" This has been fed back to their manager so they're aware. " suggests to me that you have forwarded a link to this thread around the office.

I am interested to know what processes have actually been put in place to stop any more occurrences of this very poor customer service.

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DonGould

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#690829 24-Sep-2012 20:50

richms: 2degrees should read up on what legal tender is. I was told by someone on the phone that they would refuse to accept cash from me if I turned up at the office.

2DegreesCare: To pay your last bill you need to go to NZ Post

Post shops are set up to take New Zealand legal tender. Given the number of Post Shops v's the number of actual 2degrees offices, I suggest that this is in fact very reasonable.

I do accept the suggestion that the call center staff didn't know the companies policies and correctly direct you and take proper ownership of your call.

Call Centers Need To Step Up.

I'm sure one or two of you, having read my responses above, are starting to wonder why I appear to have issue with what is really not a big issue in the grand scheme of things.

My issue is that I campaign that telcos should be employing staff in New Zealand, New Zealanders, to work for their customers so the funds are going back into our local economy and continue to generate local employment.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/business/7722523/Solid-Energy-axes-hundreds-of-jobs

I'm sure many read about the hundreds of jobs slashed today.

If call center staff are going to provide shocking service then the whole idea will get scrapped and we'll see Facebook, Twitter and Geekzone used to provide a customer interface with on line web sites to do things.

My attitude is that if you work in a call center you need to take proper ownership of your job and do your job if you actually expect to keep your job and expect there to be a job for those who follow you.

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richms

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#690840 24-Sep-2012 21:11

Actually they told me I had to pay with bank payment because they were unable to charge my card for the final payment, I didnt get post shop suggested to me or ask about it.

I just reset up the bill payee for the steep sum of a dollar which asb no longer charge and paid them to be rid of them. Sticking with prepay with them only as I have no faith in their on account process. Upon closing it I was emailed and texted some insanely complex process to go thru just to keep access to my old bills etc online.

Richard rich.ms

dejadeadnz

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#690893 25-Sep-2012 02:36

I am interested to know what processes have actually been put in place to stop any more occurrences of this very poor customer service.

Aside from that, there's also the issue that 2Degrees appears to be non-compliant with basic commercial practice and the laws of the land in terms of fulfilling its obligation re: providing a customer with information (i.e. proof of debt) held by the company about the customer.

2degreesCare

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2degrees

#691081 25-Sep-2012 12:44

Hi Don and Richms

Please let me say this was a case of human error on our side. We acknowledge the complaint the OP has brought to our attention and have resolved her issue, with apologies for the inconvenience caused.

Our agent should have told her about the unbilled charges yet to billed, which appear in our system as 'unbilled charges' and is visible to all agents, as well as advising the customer that they would have to pay up to the end of her current billing cycle (usually the monthly rental charge). In this instance they failed to do so.

There was also the issue of 2 emails being sent out which added to the confusion. The first saying was a request for payment which was immediately followed by second email saying it was not yet due to be paid. The invoice was created and because it went to an overdue status led to the customer?s details being passed to D & B.

As a result of this case we are reviewing our billing processes.

Just to reiterate we have 2 options for customers how want to pay their final bill -

NZ Post and Internet Banking (search for Two Degrees Mobile)

More info on paying your bill can be found here - http://www.2degreesmobile.co.nz/paymonthly/paying-your-bill

^POB

DonGould

3892 posts

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#691105 25-Sep-2012 13:13

2DegreesCare: As a result of this case we are reviewing our billing processes.

Good.

How long will this review take?

When will you be reporting back to tell us what actions have been taken?

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BTR

1527 posts

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#691218 25-Sep-2012 15:52

DonGould:
2DegreesCare: As a result of this case we are reviewing our billing processes.

Good.

How long will this review take?

When will you be reporting back to tell us what actions have been taken?

I get the impression you are a bit hostile about this Don, 2D's have corrected their issue and apologised to the end user. The end user is happy with the out come and their customer care has also posted why this happened. They have said they are reviewing their practices which I will assume will be an internal review and not released publicly.

I think now is the time to let this go and let both parties move on.

DonGould

3892 posts

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#691232 25-Sep-2012 16:27

BTR: I get the impression you are a bit hostile about this Don,

Well observed.

Reply - I stepped up to suggest that someone from 2Deg will sort this fast enough and it's just stuff that happens from time to time with billing systems so we really shouldn't be to concerned.

Reply - MF quickly pointed out this isn't the first time it's happened and is spans back some 12 months.

I took the time to read the links he provided - (1,2).

I confess, I felt stupid for defending 2Degrees.

Reply - "We have identified the causes and working to resolve the issue as soon as possible. " - 6-Oct-2011

Reply - "We appreciate this isn't perfect and are working on fixing this soon" - 18-Jun-2012

I am left with the impression that these are hollow words from 2Degress and in fact there is very little or nothing happening about this at all.

This is the sort of crap that as a market place we used to complain about getting from Telecom New Zealand all the time.

Following deregulation in the 80's we then started complaining as an industry that Telecom should be regulated because it's the sort of crap they'd impose on smaller players making life harder than it had to be to compete.

As an industry today we often ask for self regulation and ask that the government don't just step in an impose consumer law that could have unexpected consequences for consumers and the industry as a whole.

If we don't want industry regulation, and we do want industry self regulation, then as an industry, of which I am part, we have to regulate ourselves and address the actions of our members, of which 2Degrees is one.

12 months ago I would have been happy to let this go and just leave 2Degrees to sort it out.

6 months ago I would have just flagged the thread and followed up with the OP to make sure she was in fact happy with the out come.

Today - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

In 6 months time I could be looking at industry regulation that impacts my business. Today if I use D & B as a source of credit information I already have to question its quality.

BTR: I think now is the time to let this go and let both parties move on.

Sure, I respect that view, I just don't happen to agree with it.

I will be happy when I hear back about:

* what policies have been put in place to ensure that customers details are not passed to D & B unless their is actually a valid bad debt that 2Degrees is actually having issue recovering.

* what policies have been put in place to ensure that a customer contacting D & B is actually able to get the information that the law in New Zealand actually entitles them to, and not just bounced back to 2Degrees and having to come to GeekZone to get it sorted out.

* what policies are being put in place to ensure that customers are able to get credit information directly from 2Degrees in the event that there is a payment dispute between the parties, again subject to what any one is entitled to under New Zealand law.

While I'm sure some people will feel I'm just unreasonable, as a 2Degrees customer myself, and someone who has been suggesting 2Degrees to other New Zealanders in an effort to support 'the smaller guy', I don't currently feel I'm being to unreasonable, not compared to the flippant attitude the company seems to be taking with respect to the curtsey I pay them!

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