2Degrees tower upgrade plans?

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#3360784 4-Apr-2025 14:54

OtterNZ:

I checked the bands in use and found that in these areas, the 2D SIM was only using 1800MHz (Band 3) while the Spark one was using 700MHz (Band 28). I checked using GIS Geek NZ and saw that in some of the places I was visiting (including towns with several towers) 2D wasn't using band 28 on their urban towers. Looking elsewhere I see urban towers where 2D is using band 28. I've found old threads talking about new 2D towers having 700MHz/Band 28 equipment, while old ones are being upgraded to include band 28.

Two things to add:-

2degrees is progressively upgrading tower all over the motu to add more 4G channels (usually at the same time as the 5G upgrade which itself adds even more capacity). This has seen many towers go from single carrier L1800 or dual carrier L900/1800 to quad carrier 4G L700/900/1800/2100 + 5G NR3500. This is a massive project and is still progressing. I'm sadly in a part of Auckland that is still using Huawei gear but once the Ericsson L700/900/1800/2100/N3500 gear go in it'll be amazing.

The signals strength your phone reports doesn't show the full picture due to Carrier Aggregation (CA) which combines different channels in different bands. I have observed situations at locations where (for example) where Carrier A has CA of 700/1800/2100 with the phone using 2100 as the main carrier and thus reporting a weak 2100 signal, while Carrier B off the same tower has the same set of frequencies with the phone selecting 700 as the main carrier and reporting a much stronger 700 signal -- but in reality both carrier actually deliver similar performance given it's both the same CA of 700/1800/2100 (with the only diff being the main carrier).

Maybe phones should report the best signal strength out of the channels it is CA rather than just the signal strength of the serving cell.

SaltyNZ

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#3360785 4-Apr-2025 14:56

MaxineN:

Your experience will vary depending on where the sectors are pointing, trans power, capacity and what LTE band your UE (user equipment aka your phone) are attached to and what the RAN thinks is the best.

Keep in mind, 2100mhz is actually on LTE/4G, 900 is also probably both U900 and L900(Salty might be able to confirm or not) but nobody could really confirm except what you see in the real world, which you've done some tests already.

If that cell site is at capacity your experience will be miserable regardless what you do.

If it's any value, my closest 2degrees cell site is just under 600 meters away and with a starting cell of L2100 + 1800 + 700 and I pull 221mbps DL and just shy of 37mbps up. Which for LTE... is pretty incredible.

Now if only the RAN would move my UE to NR3500 ;)

Where I am, I use 2D LTE as my broadband (rural options, yo). The site is about 2000m away with LOS and has 10MHz of Band 28 and 5MHz of band 8. As a Huawei site, it does not have CA. The Band 28 service will get about 80/50Mbps and the Band 8 more like 30/30. I think Band 8 is preferred based on what I tend to get as a Speed Test on a handset but my router is locked to Band 28 only. Band 8 is shared between 3G and 4G.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

MaxineN

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#3360788 4-Apr-2025 14:59

SaltyNZ:

MaxineN:

Your experience will vary depending on where the sectors are pointing, trans power, capacity and what LTE band your UE (user equipment aka your phone) are attached to and what the RAN thinks is the best.

Keep in mind, 2100mhz is actually on LTE/4G, 900 is also probably both U900 and L900(Salty might be able to confirm or not) but nobody could really confirm except what you see in the real world, which you've done some tests already.

If that cell site is at capacity your experience will be miserable regardless what you do.

If it's any value, my closest 2degrees cell site is just under 600 meters away and with a starting cell of L2100 + 1800 + 700 and I pull 221mbps DL and just shy of 37mbps up. Which for LTE... is pretty incredible.

Now if only the RAN would move my UE to NR3500 ;)

Where I am, I use 2D LTE as my broadband (rural options, yo). The site is about 2000m away with LOS and has 10MHz of Band 28 and 5MHz of band 8. As a Huawei site, it does not have CA. The Band 28 service will get about 80/50Mbps and the Band 8 more like 30/30. I think Band 8 is preferred based on what I tend to get as a Speed Test on a handset but my router is locked to Band 28 only. Band 8 is shared between 3G and 4G.

That certainly keeps things interesting for you :~)

Ramblings from a mysterious lady who's into tech. Warning I may often create zingers.

SaltyNZ

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#3360789 4-Apr-2025 15:04

MaxineN:

That certainly keeps things interesting for you :~)

It's a hell of a lot better than what rural VDSL was, even before it got vapourised by lightning...

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

OtterNZ

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#3360801 4-Apr-2025 15:24

Spark (to Spark Auckland servers) outside at 900m flat terrain and no line of sight:

2Degrees (to 2Degrees Auckland servers) outside at 500m flat terrain and almost line of sight (note: it gave an error every time and failed to do the upload):

KiwiSurfer

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#3360833 4-Apr-2025 16:54

SaltyNZ:

Where I am, I use 2D LTE as my broadband (rural options, yo). The site is about 2000m away with LOS and has 10MHz of Band 28 and 5MHz of band 8. As a Huawei site, it does not have CA. The Band 28 service will get about 80/50Mbps and the Band 8 more like 30/30. I think Band 8 is preferred based on what I tend to get as a Speed Test on a handset but my router is locked to Band 28 only. Band 8 is shared between 3G and 4G.

Huawei sites do have CA -- there are still many 700/900/1800/2100 Huawei sites around Manukau for example and I regularly get CA fine on those and have done so for years.

The issue as I understand it is most (maybe all?) phones only support one low band carrier in CA.

This effectively means there's no CA combinations that has 700 and 900 at once.

So it's not possible to do e.g. 700/900, 700/900/1800, 700/900/2100, 700/900/1800/2100.

So the best 2deg can offer is often 10MHz@L700/20MHz@1800/20MHz@2100.

Spark doesn't have this issue only because they only have one low band carrier i.e. L700. So they support L700 plus any combo of some or all of their high bands.

In areas where OneNZ has both L700 and L900 they also have the same issue -- it's either L700 or L900 (but not both) plus some or all of L1800/2100/2600 depending whether you're in range for the higher frequencies.

If you can get B28 it's definitely better as that's 10MHz on 2degrees (or 15 on OneNZ). B8 is limited to 5MHz until the 3G switch off then should go to 10Mhz (2degrees) and 15MHz (OneNZ) post 3g switch off unless they refarm that to NR instead.

RunningMan

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#3360835 4-Apr-2025 16:58

Linux:

This is a 5G speedtest down in Auckland CBD start of May 2025 on 2degrees on a Samsung S23+

Must have cracked out the time machine for that one ;-)

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#3360840 4-Apr-2025 17:05

RunningMan:

Linux:

This is a 5G speedtest down in Auckland CBD start of May 2025 on 2degrees on a Samsung S23+

Must have cracked out the time machine for that one ;-)

Ooopps I mean March

MaxineN

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#3360842 4-Apr-2025 17:13

KiwiSurfer:

SaltyNZ:

Where I am, I use 2D LTE as my broadband (rural options, yo). The site is about 2000m away with LOS and has 10MHz of Band 28 and 5MHz of band 8. As a Huawei site, it does not have CA. The Band 28 service will get about 80/50Mbps and the Band 8 more like 30/30. I think Band 8 is preferred based on what I tend to get as a Speed Test on a handset but my router is locked to Band 28 only. Band 8 is shared between 3G and 4G.

Huawei sites do have CA -- there are still many 700/900/1800/2100 Huawei sites around Manukau for example and I regularly get CA fine on those and have done so for years.

The issue as I understand it is most (maybe all?) phones only support one low band carrier in CA.

This effectively means there's no CA combinations that has 700 and 900 at once.

So it's not possible to do e.g. 700/900, 700/900/1800, 700/900/2100, 700/900/1800/2100.

So the best 2deg can offer is often 10MHz@L700/20MHz@1800/20MHz@2100.

Spark doesn't have this issue only because they only have one low band carrier i.e. L700. So they support L700 plus any combo of some or all of their high bands.

In areas where OneNZ has both L700 and L900 they also have the same issue -- it's either L700 or L900 (but not both) plus some or all of L1800/2100/2600 depending whether you're in range for the higher frequencies.

If you can get B28 it's definitely better as that's 10MHz on 2degrees (or 15 on OneNZ). B8 is limited to 5MHz until the 3G switch off then should go to 10Mhz (2degrees) and 15MHz (OneNZ) post 3g switch off unless they refarm that to NR instead.

Plenty of cell sites around Christchurch city center where my UE only gets L18 and it is miserable during some periods, despite the cell supporting other sites. CA just doesn't work outright.

I notice this a lot because it's part of my daily walk.

Ramblings from a mysterious lady who's into tech. Warning I may often create zingers.

Wara

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#3360959 5-Apr-2025 13:11

The OPs urban 2Degrees results struggle compared to my rural cellphone connections. Spark and 2Degrees have local towers 60m apart and I have unrestricted hilltop to hilltop visibility at just over 2km. My phone has a Spark SIM and 2D esim.

Depending on where I stand and using the LTE Discovery and Speedtest apps this morning, 2Degrees connected at B28 4G only (-100dBm, 126DL, 56.9UL).

To compare, Spark connected at:
B28 4G only (-80, 147/35.7)
B1 and B3 can get 5G NSA at optimal locations in the house.
B1 5G (-103, 152/18)
B3 5G (-96, 125/44.6)

Interestingly, at my address, Spark's fixed wireless broadband is restricted to the expensive, capped, rural plans but 2D will do unlimited wireless. I use Starlink which has half the resting latency of LTE but is prone to bursts of high packet loss.

OtterNZ

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#3361470 6-Apr-2025 22:45

A summary and potential conclusion to my initial hopes that the 2D towers were still in the queue for upgraded where I am and that this wasn't the long term performance I should expect (the reason I started this post).

I had fun troubleshooting, and the below is speculation but I think it's well founded. Combining all of the below together with the other info in this thread I believe the conclusion is that our towers here must be still waiting for the 2D upgrade (as SaltyNZ and KiwiSurfer mentioned earlier) based on 2D's significantly better performance elsewhere, and I guess the rural and small town towers were either originally better than ours - or are already upgraded - due to the potential for 4G broadband customers.

The testing (I used speed to test, but the signal strength generally reflected the speeds):

I ended up needing to go to a couple of nearby (smaller) towns this weekend and I did some testing while I was there. Both towns rely on a single 2D tower each with B28/B3 700/1800 for 4G. In both of those towns my phone was reliably picked up both 4G bands, and I could get outdoor speeds of over:

100mbps at 2km.
50mbps at 4km.
25mbps at 5km.
At 6km I was getting decent enough signal strength but didn't speed test.

I went past a rural 2D tower near my town with B28/B3/B1 700/1800/2100 and outdoors got:

250mbps at 400m
165mbps at 1000m

Outdoor speeds in my town (aggregate of multiple tested locations for each distance):

80-90mbps at 100m
25-30mbps at 400m
15-18mbps at 500m
3-6mbps at 700m

Terrain is flat and I don't believe that's a factor here because I got 300-400mbps Spark 5G at over 1km from the Spark tower.

There are two key differences. The first is that the 2D towers in town here only seem to use B3 1800. The second is that the better 2D towers that I tested elsewhere were the 'full size' towers (as are all the Spark and OneNZ towers in town here), while the 2D towers in town here are variations of the small 'on a lamp post' type with much smaller equipment than the 'full size' towers. Hopefully the upgrade (or even just adding B28/B8 700/900) comes here soon given how much better 2D performed in my (and your) tests elsewhere.

KiwiSurfer

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#3361494 7-Apr-2025 07:37

OtterNZ:

There are two key differences. The first is that the 2D towers in town here only seem to use B3 1800. The second is that the better 2D towers that I tested elsewhere were the 'full size' towers (as are all the Spark and OneNZ towers in town here), while the 2D towers in town here are variations of the small 'on a lamp post' type with much smaller equipment than the 'full size' towers. Hopefully the upgrade (or even just adding B28/B8 700/900) comes here soon given how much better 2D performed in my (and your) tests elsewhere.

Great summary and research!

By lamp post towers are you referring to the microcells? These look like this and this. These older (Huawei) ones as far as I know are generally either L1800 only or L1800/2100 so yes not very good for speed (you can easily spot these on GIS Geek because they're typically licensed for 1800/2100 only).

Occassionally I see 2degrees put one in and then a few years down the road they end up replacing it with a full size L700/L900/L1800/L2100/NR3500 tower. I guess they monitor the traffic to work out if they can justify the upgrade or not based on actual traffic.

The current Huawei->Ericsson upgrade programme has seen them mostly replaced with like for like. In some cases they've added small 5G NR3500 antennas as well -- although to be fair I've only seen that happen in the Auckland CBD so far so not much use in suburban/rural areas.

OtterNZ

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#3361802 7-Apr-2025 20:02

KiwiSurfer:

By lamp post towers are you referring to the microcells? These look like this and this. These older (Huawei) ones as far as I know are generally either L1800 only or L1800/2100 so yes not very good for speed (you can easily spot these on GIS Geek because they're typically licensed for 1800/2100 only).

Those are exactly the two different types I see in town here! I didn't know they were called microcells, but GIS Geek does show them as 1800(4G)/2100(3G). I have one slightly larger one on a lamp post near me that GIS Geeks says has "900 3G and/or 4G"/1800(4G)/2100(3G) but no matter how close or far away I stand, Netmapper doesn't show the 900mhz band coming off the tower.

OtterNZ

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#3383004 11-Jun-2025 20:35

For the sake of completeness if anyone comes across this topic in the future, a few weeks ago 2Degrees did a scheduled upgrade of one of the towers in town (the one I referred to as the 'main tower').

For 4G it now has B28(700) and B1(2100) in addition to the B3(1800) that it had beforehand, with bandwidth reported as 10+20+20 MHz when I'm getting a good signal. The performance improvement is obvious with signal strength no longer an issue, and speeds being multiple times faster than before when tested in the same locations.

I don't know whether my questions here had anything to do with the timing (I was intentionally vague about location), or whether it was just an already pending upgrade, but I'm a happy customer.

Linux

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#3383007 11-Jun-2025 21:00

@OtterNZ 100% planned upgrade well in advance - Few weeks back a site in Dairy Flat North of Albany only had 3G 900Mhz for years now it has 3G / 4G / 5G with speeds on 5G 700Mbps+

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=81&topicid=318411

2degrees are steaming ahead around NZ with the planned upgrades

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