2degrees Touch2Pay with Snapper FAQ

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BDFL - Memuneh
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#619573 4-May-2012 14:48

From what I've heard it works, it doesn't work, it works... Repeat. It seems some Android implementations might have intermittent problems, so let's see your tests...

keewee01

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#619586 4-May-2012 14:59

oxnsox:
SaltyNZ:
BlueShift: Probably huge security issue for the Cardax people to worry about there,

Which is why the real ones don't work that simply any more. The chips will hold a unique ID number and a crypto algorithm. The system will generate a random number, pair it with the ID it holds, and run it through the algorithm to generate an answer.

It will send the same random number to the chip on the card, which does the same thing, and should therefore come up with the same answer, which it sends back. If they match, the door opens.

You won't be able to deduce the ID on the prox card simply by watching the chatter, even if you know the crypto algorithm. Or at least that's the theory, it's very hard to make it properly. But even it's broken it should not be a matter of simply replaying the last chat.

If that DOES work you need to have a word with your security people about buying a new security system.

Clearly you need to watch more television Salty...
You're letting actual facts mess with our distorted realities

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SteveON

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#619673 4-May-2012 17:00

freitasm: I have the app installed on a HTC One X and managed to read some cards.

The phone is not listed on the site as supported... Does it work well?

freitasm

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#619761 4-May-2012 19:19

As explained in the FAQ, non-supported phones without the special SIM can be only used to read a Snapper card and to topup a Snapper card - they can't be used for payments. Otherwise, yes it works fine.

TechnoGuy001

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#619852 4-May-2012 22:04

I don't see why we even need a new "snapper" SIM card, why can't we just use the NFC thats inbuilt in most modern Android phones?
Just login as your snapper user on the snapper app and your away... that would be ideal.

lchiu7

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#620225 5-May-2012 18:59

Based on the technical presentation the other night they have implemented some of the code on the SIM itself. I am not sure what it was but vaguely recollect something about the secure element? Certainly looking at the Touch2Pay SIM versus a regular SIM, the gold contact area is much larger than a regular SIM card which seems to suggest more circuitry on the card.

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#620391 6-May-2012 11:42

freitasm: As explained in the FAQ, non-supported phones without the special SIM can be only used to read a Snapper card and to topup a Snapper card - they can't be used for payments. Otherwise, yes it works fine.

I know but he did say at the event that it may or may not work if you had the special sim because unsupported phones may or may not have the correct protocol which is not a standard yet... Which is really strange they (NFC producers) haven't sorted a standard out, rather than hoping that the one they are using will become standard. Just wondering if you still had your test model (one x) on the day and tried to make a payment with it.

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#620393 6-May-2012 11:48

TechnoGuy001: I don't see why we even need a new "snapper" SIM card, why can't we just use the NFC thats inbuilt in most modern Android phones?
Just login as your snapper user on the snapper app and your away... that would be ideal.

Because the built in NFC is cr*p. Google have gone down the path of using their own secure element in the phone, and their own NFC API to integrate with this. Both are flawed ideas and the sooner Google realisr this we'll start to see a mass rollout of NFC.

The UICC/SIM is the only logical place for a secure element, and to be honest anybody who thinks otherwise really needs to sit down and have mobile basics 101 explained to them - we have a UICC because it's a huge step forward from the old days where the ESN of a handset had to be registered with the network to make calls. A moveable UICC allows you to take your number, SMS's and contacts between devices. Now it's been expanded to allow you to move your NFC apps with you.

While there is still debate in the industry it's highly likely the Open NFC API will become the standard, and this is what Snapper's app is based on.

SteveON

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#620397 6-May-2012 11:54

sbiddle:
TechnoGuy001: I don't see why we even need a new "snapper" SIM card, why can't we just use the NFC thats inbuilt in most modern Android phones?
Just login as your snapper user on the snapper app and your away... that would be ideal.

Because the built in NFC is cr*p. Google have gone down the path of using their own secure element in the phone, and their own NFC API to integrate with this. Both are flawed ideas and the sooner Google realisr this we'll start to see a mass rollout of NFC.

The UICC/SIM is the only logical place for a secure element, and to be honest anybody who thinks otherwise really needs to sit down and have mobile basics 101 explained to them - we have a UICC because it's a huge step forward from the old days where the ESN of a handset had to be registered with the network to make calls. A moveable UICC allows you to take your number, SMS's and contacts between devices. Not it's been expanded to allow you to move your NFC apps with you.

While there is still debate in the industry it's highly likely the Open NFC API will become the standard, and this is what Snapper's app is based on.

Which is why only a few phones will become standard and will stay limited till this is sorted.

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#620520 6-May-2012 16:17

Which is why only a few phones will become standard and will stay limited till this is sorted.

Well the number of supported handsets looks set to grow quite quickly. At the Geekzone event on Thursday night in WN we (2degrees) showed 4 handsets (3 x LG, 1 x Huawei) we expect to launch by end of July, and then on Friday morning we were able to confirm a 5th device - the Galaxy SIII.

So we will have at least 5 handsets fully supporting UICC based NFC implementation (with SIMalliance Open Mobile API) by the end of July. And more will be released in the second half of the year.

This means that if you buy any one of these handsets then you'll be able to move your SIM to any other one and have seamless Touch2Pay/Snapper service.

As for whether non-Touch2Pay NFC handsets will work then the picture is trickier. As mentioned above it must have the SIMalliance API installed, but even then this API is still in development and there are differences between implementations.

freitasm

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#620523 6-May-2012 16:21

This video was shown at the launch lunch (no pun) and later in the evening at the Geekzone event:

lchiu7

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#620659 6-May-2012 20:25

timmyh:

As for whether non-Touch2Pay NFC handsets will work then the picture is trickier. As mentioned above it must have the SIMalliance API installed, but even then this API is still in development and there are differences between implementations.

Well I can sort of confirm it does NOT work on the GN. I put in a Pay2Touch SIM, fired up the application and all I see is the Welcome screen. The Help says touch on the screen to top up the SIM etc but nothing happens. Pressing the menu brings up Register, Buy a Pass, Collect and Help but onl Help does anything.

I have been able to read Snapper cards with the GN but alas none of the ones in my home :-(

I hope there is an alternative implementation soon that supports the other NFC phones out there (like the Nexus S, GN, HTC One etc.).

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#620664 6-May-2012 20:37

lchiu7: I hope there is an alternative implementation soon that supports the other NFC phones out there (like the Nexus S, GN, HTC One etc.).

I doubt you've ever rerastically see support for phones already in the marketplace as they lack the 3rd party NFC API. The exception would be Google moving forward to a new NFC model that supports SIM based secure elements.

timmyh

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#620669 6-May-2012 20:46

sbiddle:
lchiu7: I hope there is an alternative implementation soon that supports the other NFC phones out there (like the Nexus S, GN, HTC One etc.).

I doubt you've ever rerastically see support for phones already in the marketplace as they lack the 3rd party NFC API. The exception would be Google moving forward to a new NFC model that supports SIM based secure elements.

I understand the frustration and I think the best outcome is for the SIMalliance Open Mobile API specification to be finalised and agreed. Because from that point on most mobile operators would be expected to adopt it and the majority of NFC handsets would ship with it. My understanding is that this work is happening right now and we could see an outcome in the next few months - but it could take longer.

sbiddle

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#620676 6-May-2012 20:53

timmyh:I understand the frustration and I think the best outcome is for the SIMalliance Open Mobile API specification to be finalised and agreed. Because from that point on most mobile operators would be expected to adopt it and the majority of NFC handsets would ship with it. My understanding is that this work is happening right now and we could see an outcome in the next few months - but it could take longer.

The biggest issue is getting Google to changes things, and the roadblock that already exists with Mastercard and Visa both loving Gemalto's NFC solution (which is what Auckland transport are using).

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