2degrees says Hyperfibre requires the Orbi AX6000 with 1x 2.5GbE to 'get the best possible speeds'. Am I missing something, or is this a bit fishy?

Forums › 2degrees (including Slingshot, Orcon, Flip, Stuff Fibre, MyRepublic, 2talk and Vocus) › 2degrees says Hyperfibre requires the Orbi AX6000 with 1x 2.5GbE to 'get the best possible speeds'. Am I missing something, or is this a bit fishy?

Kodiack

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#306232 5-Jul-2023 18:38

I was looking at 2degrees' Hyperfibre plans. Both the 2 Gbps and 4 Gbps plans require using the Orbi "Hyperfibre modem", either with a "free" modem rental on a fixed-term plan, or a $600 upfront cost for an open term. 2degrees also does not seem to allow you to bring your own router, with their FAQ plainly stating:

Can I use my own router for Hyperfibre?
At the moment, no. To ensure you get the best possible speeds from your new Hyperfibre connection, you will need to use our dedicated Hyperfibre modem which is included in your plan. In the meantime, we’re working on making older modems compatible with Hyperfibre and hope to roll this out in the future.

2degrees isn't entirely transparent about exactly which "Orbi AX6000" they're using, but looking at these specs I'm a bit underwhelmed with the connectivity options. Namely, it only has one 2.5 GbE port, and 4 1 GbE ports.

For 2/2 Gbps plans, this might be okay, especially if it supports link aggregation. For 4/4 Gbps plans, you might be able to connect at 4 Gbps with some WAN link aggregation, maybe? Even then, it's not going to be capable of delivering that speed to other devices on the network over Ethernet.

This router seems woefully underwhelming for something that's required for 2degrees Hyperfibre. In most cases, it seems that it would unlikely be able to provide more than 1 GbE to wired client devices, and its inherent limitations make the 4 Gbps plan seem entirely inappropriate.

Assuming I'm not missing some blatantly obvious detail here, this seems like it's more for allowing several devices to have up to 1 Gbps speeds than to allow an individual device to utilise the connection's full potential?

Why is 2degrees pushing this as a device that's "designed for Hyperfibre" (per "Things to know") when in reality it seems like a bog-standard WiFi 6 router with a single 2.5 GbE port and 4x 1 GbE ports? I would expect more from a device that's "designed for Hyperfibre" and whose use is mandated by the ISP.

Someone, please tell me I'm missing some key detail. This smells fishy to me, and I'm hoping that my scepticism isn't warranted.

nzkc

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#3100381 5-Jul-2023 19:01

They list it as the RBR860. Datasheet here: https://www.downloads.netgear.com/files/GDC/RBR860S/RBR860S_TS.pdf

Seems to still mostly be the same though... Does have 1 x 10Gbps "multigigabit" WAN port and 4 x 1Gbps ports.

I get 2d wanting to encourage devices they know and support. Still a bit weird you _have_ to use this router especially as it'll limit you connecting to any multigigabit switches or routers downstream. That said; I'd be surprised if you couldnt copy the configuration to a device of your choosing. Support may well be non existent so you'd want to hang onto that Orbi in case of problems.

You have a choice of providers - you could look at another who offers more towards your needs.

Kodiack

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#3100389 5-Jul-2023 19:29

nzkc:

They list it as the RBR860.

Ah, so they do! I was looking in all the wrong places for the exact model haha. Thanks for that.

It's still really underwhelming though. Further reading about similar devices indicates that WAN aggregation may be the only option; LAN aggregation would be absent.

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi-WIFI-6-AX-AND-Wi-Fi-6E-AXE/Orbi-WiFi-6-System-AX6000-RBK852-Double-Link-Aggregation/td-p/2009335

This means that WiFi would be the only way to get faster than gigabit on a single device, if it's the same for the RBR860. Really not keen on that, doubly so because my network equipment is in my garage with a separate AP located centrally in the house.

Thankfully I'm not in a huge rush for Hyperfibre, so I can wait for the options to improve, either with 2d or elsewhere.

RunningMan

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#3100391 5-Jul-2023 19:31

For the type of client requiring hyperfibre, you'd think they could do away with repeatedly referring to using a modem, and actually talk about a router. The linked CPE doesn't have a modem in it.

Presumably any sufficently spec'd router can drop a DHCP client on the WAN and be used.

SamF

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#3102132 10-Jul-2023 13:39

This means that WiFi would be the only way to get faster than gigabit on a single device, if it's the same for the RBR860. Really not keen on that...

Agreed! Very disappointing that the provided device has only 1Gb LAN ports AND that you can't currently provide your own device.

I get why, but still, a real pity.

I'm also not desperate for HyperFibre; I don't really NEED the additional speed (although I still WANT it of course :D )

In any case, I'd need to upgrade my entire network to take advantage of it, so that's a lot of time, effort and money for something I'd only utilise every so often.

Good to see the options becoming available from 2D however.

nztim

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TEAMnetwork

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#3102811 11-Jul-2023 16:49

I am pretty sure you can put any modem in with DHCP/VLAN10 now they are on the Vocus network

It is more of a case of "I am not getting 2gbps, why" that they are requiring you to use their modem

Also, to get those speed over WiFi (which is the only way with a single 10GBPS WAN) you need 160MHZ wide 5ghz channels which won't work in densely populated areas.

I see HF as a complete waste of time.

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

NickHalden

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#3103129 12-Jul-2023 12:25

Disclaimer:
Not a 2degrees rep.
Not a Netgear Orbi rep.
Not a Chorus rep.
Not a rep of any kind.
Not speaking on their behalf or with any authority about the below.
Just a customer looking into getting Hyperfibre.
Could be dead wrong about the below and please correct me if I am :)

Chiming in on the discussion. From what I can tell on the 2degrees website, the Orbi 860 is indeed the router being sent out with Hyperfibre sign up.

I've had a look over the manual for the device and my understanding is as below:

10Gig WAN connection.
4x 1Gig LAN connection.
Tri-band Wi-Fi consisting of 1x2.5Ghz channel and 2x5Ghz channels.
- 2.4Ghz channel theoretical speed of up to 1.2Gb/s.
- 5Ghz channel theoretical speed of up to 2.4Gb/s each.
- 1x1.2Gb/s + 2x2.4Gb/s seems to be where Netgear gets its claim of 6Gb/s Wi-Fi.
- Key point: The second 5Ghz channel appears to be dedicated to backhaul link between the main station and the "satellite" (repeater/extender) stations.
  - This means for any given client device; they are likely to only make use of a max of 1x2.4Ghz + 1x5Ghz = max speed of 3.6Gb/s.

Knowing that, it is theoretically possible to saturate the 10Gig WAN port with a combination of the below:

4x Hard-wired computers connected to each of the 4x1Gig LAN ports. (Total 4GB/s)
1x Wi-Fi client connected direct to main station getting dual band 1.2Ghz+5Ghz (Total 3.6GB/s)
1x Wi-Fi client connected to satellite station at 1x5Ghz (in turn making use of the 5Ghz backhaul to the main station) (Total 2.4GB/s)
Total 4+3.6+2.4=10Gb/s
Bear in mind, 2degrees currently seems to be offering 4GB/s as it's max, so in reality you'd saturate that connection with only a subset of the above.

So, in that regard, the Orbi router does appear to be able to deliver, albeit by splitting the WAN connection between multiple LAN/Wi-Fi clients.

Now, if you're looking to get your full 4GB/s down on a single client, my guess is you'll need to be using some other router with a 10Gig LAN port. These can be pretty pricy and probably beyond what an ISP would toss in for free with a 12-month plan. Honestly as far as ISP routers go, the Orbi actually seems like a pretty solid offer...

As for whether a third-party router will work or not, I'm as clueless as the rest of you. I don't have a 10Gig router OR a hyperfibre connection to test with right now. However, as others have pointed out, there's a decent chance that any device with DHCP/VLAN10 support will work, but obviously as it's not officially signed off by the ISP nobody is making any promises and there's no way to know without trying. If anyone does sign up to hyperfibre and try with their own router, I too would be interested to know the outcome.

SamF

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#3103133 12-Jul-2023 12:29

That's a lot of disclaimers you have there brother! :)

But regardless, you raise some good points.

Quic Broadband

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NickHalden

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#3103237 12-Jul-2023 15:03

Well, disclaimers are helpful when one often gets things wrong. As I seem to have done in this case. Given I can't edit my earlier comment, I'll correct myself here. It's not at all relevant to the hyperfibre conversation, but I hate to be a source of misinformation

Turns out a Wi-Fi client device can only operate on a single band at any given time. This means in those sections where I talk about a single client operating on the 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz bands simultaneously and getting 3.6GB/s, I'm talking rubbish. In reality it seems that client will only be connected to EITHER 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz and getting (at most, assuming 5Ghz connection) 2.4GB/s.

The ability to saturate the 10GB/s WAN connection given enough separate clients still stands, you'll just need two WiFi clients connected to the main base station, one on 5Ghz and the other on 2.4Ghz to total the 3.6GB/s, rather than a single client connected to both bands.

SamF

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#3103249 12-Jul-2023 15:30

I don't think anyone's going to be suing you any time soon for your inaccurate GZ post, but that said, I do admire a man who can admit when he's wrong :)

Anyway, if we're getting into the details...

Real-world benchmarking shows more like 1Gbps max wireless speeds in an ideal situation (single device, 4.5m from the AP).

You have to remember that the 'rated' 2.4Gbps 5GHz WiFi throughput is:
a) theoretical
b) a measure of combined upstream and downstream throughput
c) not taking into account protocol overheads, error correction etc etc.

So 1Gbps sounds about right to me all things considered.

Additionally, the throughput here is really 'per radio'; in this case being 2x 5GHz + 1x 2.4GHz.

So, based on this additional information, the max total WiFi throughput is more likely:

1Gbps + 1Gbps + 0.5Gbps = 2.5Gbps total

Therefore, to amend your original math:
Total 4+2.5=6.5Gb/s

Not enough to saturate the 10Gbps WAN port, but more than enough to saturate a 4Gbps HyperFibre connection :)

Vindy500

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Chorus

#3103253 12-Jul-2023 15:42

In the interest of disclaimers, because that seems to be the theme, I do work for Chorus and it is very much in my interest that as many people connect to Hyperfibre as possible. I am not a network engineer though.

I was playing round with a couple of computers and steam on a Hyperfibre 2000 connection the other day. I was able to get around 1.3 Gbps on a single computer download (in fairness on a router with a 2.5G lan port). running a second download on a second computer (plugged in a 1G port) saw a total download of ~1.8 Gbps with computer 2 downloading at ~500 Mbps. I suspect the router I was using had some kind of priority towards the 2.5G port.

Doing the same on a Fibre Max connection limited me to ~750 Mbps on computer 1 and ~200 Mbps on computer 2, not a great experience for computer 2.

One of the use cases we believe exists for Hyperfibre would be multiple people doing multiple downloads (or uploads) with significantly less contention, a gig for me and a gig for you type of thing.

SamF

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#3103258 12-Jul-2023 15:51

Some interesting real-world tests there!

I agree that the use-case is definitely much stronger for 'multiple, simultaneous high-speed streams', vs a 'single ultra-high speed stream' user.

This is partially due to the fact that there doesn't seem to be many servers out there willing (or perhaps more likely, able), to send >1Gbps of data to a single remote user.

That said, to push back on my own point; it's DAMN HARD to saturate even a 1Gbps Internet connection, and believe me, I've spent a lot of time trying! :D

I get the best speeds from Steam downloads, by quite some margin.

I'm actually more interested in upload speeds for now as I tend to want to upload a lot of big files quickly.

I'd really like a 1G/1G connection for now TBH.

Lorenceo

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#3103361 12-Jul-2023 16:41

SamF:
I'm actually more interested in upload speeds for now as I tend to want to upload a lot of big files quickly.

I'd really like a 1G/1G connection for now TBH.

Same here. A geek can dream, I guess.

SamF

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#3103369 12-Jul-2023 17:13

Such a thing does actually exist, somewhere deep in the bowels of the Chorus network; technically it's a 'hyper-fibre' product I believe, but I've never seen it actually offered as a retail option.

I guess most people would find it pointless.

I actually 'know a guy' who MAY be able to supply it; not sure what it would cost however.