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hazza87

352 posts

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#20313 20-Mar-2008 14:20
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Here is my current setup:
Satellite Dish Fitted by sky - goes to splitter (one to sky box) (one to tv card on PC for DVB-S Freeview) (Signal on tv card and sky box almost perfect in strength and quality)
VHF aerial ( large on high mast) - goes to sky box. (signal is a bit ghosty on some channels TV1 & TV3 mainly but does not deteriorate between the 4 tv's)

RF out from sky box goes to 4 way splitter going to 4 separate TV's 
Composite out from sky box goes to main 40" LCD


I am looking at adding a UHF aerial to get DVB-T FreeviewHD

1. I am unsure what the signal will be like as the VHF reception isnt that great although is watchable with big aerial on high mast. Also unsure whether it is worth getting a big High Gain 91 element aerial like this one
Or whether a 43 element one would do.

2. I was planning on putting the UHF aerial about 50cm below the big VHF aerial on the same mast as it would be pretty difficult to put the UHF above the VHF as the mast is pretty tall already 1.5m above the roof at least.

3. I was planning on combining the UHF and VHF signals in a diplexer on the roof before going down to the sky box in the lounge then taking all tv's from the 4 way splitter ( from the rf out of sky box see above). Will all tv's get the current sky channel plus all vhf and uhf frequencies?

4. The Hybrid DVB-S and DVB-T + Analogue TV Card is a room on the other side of the house to the sky box. So i would be taking the cable from the splitter box to the other side of the house to the PC. But i already have a cable from the sat dish to that room and was wondering if it was worth combining the sat and vhf/uhf/sky signal in the one cable with a sat terrestrial diplexer then splitting them again at the other end. (Will this deteriorate the signal further? Is it worth it should i just run 2 cables?)

Thanks for the help!

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mentalinc
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  #117772 20-Mar-2008 14:32
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Why do you need to keep the VHF? the UHF + Freeview will do everything you need.





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eXDee
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  #117780 20-Mar-2008 15:56
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^Most people cant afford to put a DTT STB/HTPC by every TV that they own....

cyril7
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  #117785 20-Mar-2008 16:08
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Hi Harry, an idea of your location might help with determining a few usefull comments.

Cyril



hazza87

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  #117818 20-Mar-2008 19:33
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As for the first comment, I will need to keep the VHF as 3 of the 4 tv's will not have freeview stb's and therefore still need the current sky channel and normal analogue tv going to them. Perhaps in the future they will all have freeview stb's but not for a while yet.

And as for the location i am in Glendowie in Auckland, definetly within perfect theoretical DTT reception area. But the house is located down a bit of a hill which causes a few problems in VHF recption not nearly as good as say 2km down the road where my parents live.

cyril7
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  #117833 21-Mar-2008 07:42
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Hi Harry, I see no problem with anything you are wanting to do except I will make the following comments.

That antenna is pretty large for a inner city location, what size are others using on nearby houses, your DVB-T options in Auckland are Waiataua, PineHill, Remurewa and Sky Tower, I suspect more than one of those may be an option for you other than where you get your VHF reception from (most likely Waiatara). From where you are you may have clearer site of Pinehill maybe?

Yes combining V and UHF antennas on a mast mount diplexer is ok, i recommend that you replace all your antenna feeds with RG6, if you can get quad shield all the better, and use a F connectorised diplexer not a saddle and clamp one. Also try and get a UHF antenna with a Fconnectorised balun, this is becoming the norm now. Ideally once the VHF transmission end I recommend you remove the VHF antenna as this will just become a noise engress point that may upset your DTT transmissions, if you have F connectors on the mast and a enough cable slack (think about that when installing) you will be able to simply remove the diplexer and VHF antenna and connect the cable direcly to the UHF antenna with no drama. F connectors offer both convienence and superiour impedance characteristics and shielding.

Yes you can use a pair of diplexers to get V/UHF + LBand(sat) down a single cable, there will be a loss but not that great, ensure you use a diplexer at each end as most TV tuners dont look nice in the Lband and if you dont use a diplexer to isolate spectrums then you can cause issues. With general system losses, for Lband its quite flexible, as long as you have enough signal to keep the sat STB locked then its fine, the critical thing is the quality reading if this makes a big dive then you are in trouble and will need to make up losses.

Cyril

Mattnzl
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  #117834 21-Mar-2008 07:53
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Great info thanks Cyril - as always!  Is it common or a good idea to use an F type wall socket now too?
We have sat dish only (no uhf/vhf) being installed so an F connector for the wall socket would be handy.
Matt...

cyril7
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  #117837 21-Mar-2008 08:39
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Hi Matt, well the AS/NZ standard states that a Bellinglee (aka PAL) connector is to be used for V/UHF connectors at a wall plate. Further more DVB-T STBs will have a PAL connector as an antenna input just as analog TVs have. It seems a bit odd to me as the Fconnector is superiour, however PDL and other electrical manufactures have PAL connector insert mechs that have an F socket on the rear so you can cable to the back of the wall plate in F. You then simply need a PAL fly lead to connect just like analog TV. It makes sense in a way and readily identifys Lband from V/UHF. That said I personally only use F connectors and make F-F fly RG6 leads with a F-PAL adaptor on the end.

Harry, one more suggestion, do your LCD a favour and get a component SCART cable for your Sky box, assuming your support component, check in the SCART setup menu under adavanced setting in the Sky STB.

Cyril



hazza87

352 posts

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  #117866 21-Mar-2008 11:19
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The scart to component cable for the sky box is a thing ive been meaning to do for a while but never got round to it, gota justify these expenses to the partner you see. Am planning on gettings a SKY HD box when they come out later this year then using HDMI, might just put up with the worse signal until then.

1. Another question, Is it worth switching the 4 way splitter in lounge (from the sky box to all the tv's) to a f connecterised one not a screw in type that i have at the moment ( TV aerial installer did it )?

Also will definetly consider chaning some of the cabling to RG6 as one of the tv's gets rubbish reception thanks to some very dodgy cabling, the main cable from the VHF aerial to the sky box is RG6 as it was done by a tv aerial installer about a year ago. How much difference does quad sheild make over normal RG6 (dual sheild i presume) as i see its a bit more expensive.

Was planning on terminating as f connectors at all ends then using an f to belling lee adaptor if needed (for DVB-T connector on STB's and TV card)

Looking on from the roof it seems a few of the neighbours have mid sized roughly 43 element UHF aerials so i think i will try that hopefully it will work. Looking at one of the Hills Signal Master ones they seem good quality and with F connector baluns.

P.S Thanks alot Cyril great advice just what i needed to know!!

cyril7
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  #117876 21-Mar-2008 11:55
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Fully shielded Fconnectorised splitters are superiour to saddle and clamp ones, both in insertion loss and shielding, but if you have old RG59 cable to deal with it may be best just leaving it till you upgrade to all RG6 and get a new splitter.

Quad shield has been recommended for DVB-T installations although not totally necessary. COFDM is sensitive to impulse noise issues and better shielding of cables can help, however most impulse noise will ingress through the antenna, hence getting rid of that large VHF antenna is a good idea. In Australia they use both BIII VHF (174-230MHz) as well as the UHF band, and its the BIII reception that most benifits from the extra shielding offered by quad shield, aussie installers I have spoken to say they have had few if any issues with UHF DVB-T channels on duo bond. Dont forget that most manmade impulse noise is more in the HF and VHF band, buy the time we get to UHF most has either natually attenuated or does not exist in the first place. In NZ we are only using UHF so my guess duo bond will be adequate, removing a unused VHF antenna is more important.

Cyril

hazza87

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  #117882 21-Mar-2008 12:10
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So would it be benneficial to move the UHF aerial to a mast futher away from the VHF one? Considering the VHF one may be used for a few years yet by the tvs that won't have STB's

cyril7
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  #117897 21-Mar-2008 13:21
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No the main coupling is when you diplex them together, if you want to avoid that then run a seperate coax for the UHF and take it to the DVB-T tuner and dont couple it back to the analog feeds.

500mm of seperation should be fine.

Cyril

mentalinc
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  #117902 21-Mar-2008 13:46
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Have you tried your reception without the VHF aerial?

I find with a UHF i still get "ok" reception on all stations.




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hazza87

352 posts

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  #117914 21-Mar-2008 15:21
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Well i haven't got a UHF aerial yet so i don't know about that, but the current VHF reception isnt great even with a Big aerial so it can only be worse without it and just a UHF aerial.

kiwisat
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  #117933 21-Mar-2008 19:34
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I have some experience in UHF installations in Auckland. As suggested before, check the other UHF aerials in your location.
If all you can see are dishes and very few UHF antennae, you are possibly residing in one of those dead areas of Auckland.
My parents lived on the eastern side of St Johns and my best reception came from Mt Te Aroha. Sky installers came into the area
and went the same way.
Then again Glendowie is near the sea and your VHF aerial or terminations may just need a birthday. I reside in Panmure on the
flat but no line of sight to either Sky Tower or Waiatarua, so Auckland can pose challenges. Nothing like Wgtn though.

hazza87

352 posts

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  #117937 21-Mar-2008 19:46
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This used to be a problem as the VHF was completely unwatchable until we got a new antenna installed about a year ago with new cables and connections and now it is acceptable but not perfect. I think the sea definetly corrodes things faster ( The end of the garden is a beach so the metal doesnt last long on the roof.) As for the neighbours at least half have UHF aerials so i am hopeful of receptions.

P.s What is the best place around here to get all the equipment cables splitters etc from, wonder what the trade discounts are could probably get a sparky i know to get the stuff for me if there is a good discount.

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