A potential TPP gotcha

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#1403912 11-Oct-2015 16:25

gzt:
NZtechfreak: So now all the people saying people opposed to the TPP were cranks and nutjobs, faced with the actual text for the IP section, are now rushing to assure me that it won't look that bad when it's implemented. Right. Just like Groser and Keys repeated assurances that medicines wouldn't cost more. Right.

As I understand it the assurance was that medicines would not cost more to the consumer. They will increase the Pharmac buying budget so there is no change for the patient. Is it different? Certainly the overall costs for the government will increase and this will or could create pressures for other changes and that is a real danger. The Pharmac procedures will be exempt from ISDS and SDS so that is a relief.

The patient is also the tax payer.

What the government is saying is that it won't cost the patient anymore cash, however they will need to send the government a cheque each month.

Fred99

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#1403919 11-Oct-2015 16:58

sir1963:
gzt:
NZtechfreak: So now all the people saying people opposed to the TPP were cranks and nutjobs, faced with the actual text for the IP section, are now rushing to assure me that it won't look that bad when it's implemented. Right. Just like Groser and Keys repeated assurances that medicines wouldn't cost more. Right.

As I understand it the assurance was that medicines would not cost more to the consumer. They will increase the Pharmac buying budget so there is no change for the patient. Is it different? Certainly the overall costs for the government will increase and this will or could create pressures for other changes and that is a real danger. The Pharmac procedures will be exempt from ISDS and SDS so that is a relief.

The patient is also the tax payer.

What the government is saying is that it won't cost the patient anymore cash, however they will need to send the government a cheque each month.

It's more complex. The budget for Pharmac can be easily adjusted to allow for an average expected increase in cost for existing patent medicine - due to patent duration being extended. What can't be explained away so easily is patented drugs which do not or will not meet criteria for funding now and in the future, so will not be funded at all until generics are available - which will take longer. That will cost lives. It's futile denying it.

gzt

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#1403946 11-Oct-2015 18:55

Fred99: It's more complex. The budget for Pharmac can be easily adjusted to allow for an average expected increase in cost for existing patent medicine - due to patent duration being extended. What can't be explained away so easily is patented drugs which do not or will not meet criteria for funding now and in the future, so will not be funded at all until generics are available - which will take longer. That will cost lives. It's futile denying it.

I also thought it would extend from 5 years to eight but the mfat release is not clear how that will be achieved or attempted. Additionally it looks like biologics only, not generics in general. :

"New Zealand law provides five years of data protection
for small molecule and biological pharmaceuticals
(also known as biologics). TPP requires New Zealand to
continue to provide five years of data protection for
small molecule pharmaceuticals. For biologics, New
Zealand will be required to provide the five years of
data protection together with further effective market
protection through other measures, taking into account
local market circumstances. Although these are new
obligations for New Zealand, they can be met within
existing policy settings and practice"

http://www.tpp.mfat.govt.nz/assets/docs/TPP_factsheet_Intellectual-Property.PDF

Edit: quoted full para from mfat doc.

gzt

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#1403947 11-Oct-2015 19:00

The bottom of that section may cause a few dairy farmers and other agriculturalists to splutter the morning coffee. Protection on agricultural chemicals will increase from 5 years to ten years.

sir1963

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#1403956 11-Oct-2015 19:13

gzt:
Fred99: It's more complex. The budget for Pharmac can be easily adjusted to allow for an average expected increase in cost for existing patent medicine - due to patent duration being extended. What can't be explained away so easily is patented drugs which do not or will not meet criteria for funding now and in the future, so will not be funded at all until generics are available - which will take longer. That will cost lives. It's futile denying it.

I also thought it would extend from 5 years to eight but the mfat release is not clear how that will be achieved or attempted.

"The TPP outcome on data protection for pharmaceuticals (including biological pharmaceuticals) can be met within New Zealand’s current policy settings and practice."

That is repeated several times. Additionally it looks like biologics only, not generics in general.

http://www.tpp.mfat.govt.nz/assets/docs/TPP_factsheet_Intellectual-Property.PDF

We will not be able to import generics until the "patent" time is up. HOWEVER, there is the option for "patent dispute" at the end of this period
where by the patent holder is able to claim a dispute over the generic, this can take years to go though the courts system.

I would expect generics to take 10-12 years before they become available.

gzt

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#1403958 11-Oct-2015 19:16

Yes. The patent linkage paragraph:

But again the document implies no real changes to current situation except notification:

"New Zealand will need to provide for ‘patent linkage’
but will not need to adopt the patent linkage models
found in some other TPP countries. Patent linkage under
TPP will require the Government to put in place a system
that enables a pharmaceutical patent holder to be
notified that a generic version of their product has been
submitted to Medsafe for regulatory approval. New
Zealand will also need to ensure there is sufficient time
and opportunity for a patent owner to seek preliminary
injunctions to resolve patent disputes prior to a generic
version of its patented medicine entering the market.
New Zealand’s current law and practice is sufficient
in this area. Medsafe will not be required directly to
prevent a competitor placing a generic on the market
until the patent expires, or resolve patent disputes. That
will remain a matter for New Zealand Courts."

gzt

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#1403961 11-Oct-2015 19:23

I guess sufficient time could mean anywhere from 30 to 90 days, and that could kill someone who would otherwise have access to a generic after approval. Even if the notification is made prior to expiry there will still be remaining cases where no generic approval is made until much later.

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#1403965 11-Oct-2015 19:32

Fred99:
sir1963:
gzt:
NZtechfreak: So now all the people saying people opposed to the TPP were cranks and nutjobs, faced with the actual text for the IP section, are now rushing to assure me that it won't look that bad when it's implemented. Right. Just like Groser and Keys repeated assurances that medicines wouldn't cost more. Right.

As I understand it the assurance was that medicines would not cost more to the consumer. They will increase the Pharmac buying budget so there is no change for the patient. Is it different? Certainly the overall costs for the government will increase and this will or could create pressures for other changes and that is a real danger. The Pharmac procedures will be exempt from ISDS and SDS so that is a relief.

The patient is also the tax payer.

What the government is saying is that it won't cost the patient anymore cash, however they will need to send the government a cheque each month.

It's more complex. The budget for Pharmac can be easily adjusted to allow for an average expected increase in cost for existing patent medicine - due to patent duration being extended. What can't be explained away so easily is patented drugs which do not or will not meet criteria for funding now and in the future, so will not be funded at all until generics are available - which will take longer. That will cost lives. It's futile denying it.

I am a user of Biologics to treat my condition, I find the last part of your post to be unsubstantiated alarmist.

gzt

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#1403966 11-Oct-2015 19:40

sir1963:
gzt:
Fred99: It's more complex. The budget for Pharmac can be easily adjusted to allow for an average expected increase in cost for existing patent medicine - due to patent duration being extended. What can't be explained away so easily is patented drugs which do not or will not meet criteria for funding now and in the future, so will not be funded at all until generics are available - which will take longer. That will cost lives. It's futile denying it.

I also thought it would extend from 5 years to eight but the mfat release is not clear how that will be achieved or attempted.

"The TPP outcome on data protection for pharmaceuticals (including biological pharmaceuticals) can be met within New Zealand’s current policy settings and practice."

That is repeated several times. Additionally it looks like biologics only, not generics in general.

http://www.tpp.mfat.govt.nz/assets/docs/TPP_factsheet_Intellectual-Property.PDF

We will not be able to import generics until the "patent" time is up. HOWEVER, there is the option for "patent dispute" at the end of this period
where by the patent holder is able to claim a dispute over the generic, this can take years to go though the courts system.

I would expect generics to take 10-12 years before they become available.

The patent holder can do that now under the existing regime. I dont see any change flagged in the officlal mfat tpp result docs (apart from notification) and not even a change from five to eight years. So if what you suggest is true, I see no indication that is going to happen in the official docs. And as I noted previously ISDS and SDS does not apply to the pharma annex.

JimmyH

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#1404027 11-Oct-2015 22:01

cruxis: Questions

So importing and selling HDCP strippers will still be legal under TPP?
Is Recording World cup rugby games off myskyHD using a HDCP stripper to PC legal for own use with mysky subscription?

The TPP doesn't make this illegal - importing and selling such devices is already illegal. So, AFAIK, is manufacturing them for sale. However, I don't believe that importation for private use is currently illegal. Certainly, it wasn't when I landed mine.

Copying rugby games off your MySky is *probably* technically illegal, unless you can show that you have an exemption (which I suspect would be a pretty long bow for rugby games) such as research or private study. Not impossible, but unlikely. However, it's a technical breach, in much the same was as copying own CDs to your own Ipod was before they bowed to the inevitable on that one. Unless you do something unethical and stupid, live uploading the footage to the net, no one is likely going to care - much less kick your door down.

Fred99

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#1404032 11-Oct-2015 22:04

MikeB4:
Fred99:
sir1963:
gzt:
NZtechfreak: So now all the people saying people opposed to the TPP were cranks and nutjobs, faced with the actual text for the IP section, are now rushing to assure me that it won't look that bad when it's implemented. Right. Just like Groser and Keys repeated assurances that medicines wouldn't cost more. Right.

As I understand it the assurance was that medicines would not cost more to the consumer. They will increase the Pharmac buying budget so there is no change for the patient. Is it different? Certainly the overall costs for the government will increase and this will or could create pressures for other changes and that is a real danger. The Pharmac procedures will be exempt from ISDS and SDS so that is a relief.

The patient is also the tax payer.

What the government is saying is that it won't cost the patient anymore cash, however they will need to send the government a cheque each month.

It's more complex. The budget for Pharmac can be easily adjusted to allow for an average expected increase in cost for existing patent medicine - due to patent duration being extended. What can't be explained away so easily is patented drugs which do not or will not meet criteria for funding now and in the future, so will not be funded at all until generics are available - which will take longer. That will cost lives. It's futile denying it.

I am a user of Biologics to treat my condition, I find the last part of your post to be unsubstantiated alarmist.

Well it isn't unsubstantiated, Whether it's "alarmist"or not is subject to interpretation. Under a rationed healthcare system, that's how it's going to work. It may be arguable that there's an overall economic benefit from TPP with a potential benefit ( to public health) offsetting or exceeding that "dead rat". Facts about that - rather than political BS and spin - would be good to see.

Linuxluver

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#1404064 11-Oct-2015 23:17

gzt: The bottom of that section may cause a few dairy farmers and other agriculturalists to splutter the morning coffee. Protection on agricultural chemicals will increase from 5 years to ten years.

Yeah...this isn't "free trade". It's monopoly extension.

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#1404076 12-Oct-2015 02:20

cruxis:

It is get the rugbygames onto a pc so I could use Emby to stream it out to a location without mysky, works a treat.

Looking further into TPP Such I usefull thing now gets a harsh penalty now.

Never mind the TPP, that was already illegal. You broke copyright law twice, actually - once when you copied it from the MySky to the PC, and again when you rebroadcasted it. And rebroadcasting is a huge no-no. Pretty sure they always pursue that as commercial copyright infringement, which is actually a criminal offence. (I do not believe that charge would actually stick in this case, but you certainly would get a fine. Probably a hefty one because IRB are pretty aggressive).

MikeB4

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#1404087 12-Oct-2015 07:46

The TPP has produced more FUD than the open source v proprietary software debates over the decades.

Fred99

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#1404193 12-Oct-2015 11:00

MikeB4: The TPP has produced more FUD than the open source v proprietary software debates over the decades.

It probably has. Regardless of whether the outcome is "on balance" good, bad, or neutral (and I don't know the answer to that - except it's not "all" good), if the "FUD" gains traction to the extent that it's a poison pill for politicians to ratify, those who decided that negotiations had to be totally shrouded in secrecy in the manner it was, might take a lesson from that with any future FTA negotiations.

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