A potential TPP gotcha

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#1392161 22-Sep-2015 19:22

throbb: I'm sure there will be winners and losers in the TPP

That's absolutely certain.
Thing is the winners will get richer, and some of the losers will die.

Fred99

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#1392162 22-Sep-2015 19:27

NorthernZone: Since the Govt has repeatedly insisted that Pharmac, other health & environmental policies, will be fundamentally preserved, I infer they have placed such matters in their "carved out" area.

Sorry to tell you this - but like hell they have.
Key's conceded that as a "tradeoff" he thinks we should make - but won't tell us what he knows.

scuwp

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#1392169 22-Sep-2015 19:36

Fred99:
throbb: I'm sure there will be winners and losers in the TPP

That's absolutely certain.
Thing is the winners will get richer, and some of the losers will die.

Really? Wow that escalated quickly!

I reiterate..how do you know this? Speculation and inference repeated does not = truth.

There are always trade offs in negotiations, the only hope is that the government has items to trade that result in ultimately better value for NZ. Aaaaand as those details are secret it's nothing but guesswork.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

JimmyH

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#1392171 22-Sep-2015 19:43

Personally, I'm a little sceptical of some of the wilder claims that are being made about the TPPA.

In general, trade liberalisation is a good thing, and I'm in favour of trade agreements. The weight of logic and history clearly shows that trade is associated with rising prosperity over time, and autarky isn't.

It's interesting to note that the US corporation raised its prices now, before the TPPA has been agreed much less been brought into force, and so it seems a bit strange to attribute this to the TPPA.

My understanding on drugs is that what is being contemplated is in essence a slightly longer period before patents expire and generics become available. The downside of this is that it will take a bit longer for new medicines to come off patent and become cheaper. The upside is that longer patent protection hopefully makes it more profitable to invest in R&D for new drugs (which isn't a cheap thing to do), accelerating the development and availability of more and better medicines. Whether this is a good thing for NZ overall is very much an on balance consideration.

The reality is that no treaty like this can be negotiated fully in public, things just don't work that way. NZ has some very competent people working on this agreement and advising the Government, and I have dealt with some of them in a past life. Personally, until the details are available, I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Fred99

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#1392172 22-Sep-2015 19:44

scuwp:
Fred99:
throbb: I'm sure there will be winners and losers in the TPP

That's absolutely certain.
Thing is the winners will get richer, and some of the losers will die.

Really? Wow that escalated quickly!

I reiterate..how do you know this? Speculation and inference repeated does not = truth.

There are always trade offs in negotiations, the only hope is that the government has items to trade that result in ultimately better value for NZ. Aaaaand as those details are secret it's nothing but guesswork.

By listening to medical specialists. They know how the restrictions - as Key has admitted - will be imposed will impact on present and future cost.
So you have qualified expert opinion, vs that from a politician - with an only average record for telling the whole truth, and a regular problem recalling details.,
Take your pick.

NorthernZone

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#1392177 22-Sep-2015 19:53

Ref the opinions of medical specialists: I certainly agree that we should accord special weighting to their expert opinions in the areas of their professional expertise. But when their opinions stray into areas outside that, such as economics and international trade policy, then their opinions are surely of no greater value than any other lay person. Frankly I respect the professionalism and patriotism and experience of our trade negotiators to do their specialist job just as much as I respect the comparable expertise of oncologists or other medicos in their own areas.

NorthernZone

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#1392179 22-Sep-2015 19:55

Further, while it is true that some medical practitioners have expressed negative opinions about the TPP, my understanding is that the Pharmac board (ie not just employees) have expressed confidence in the TPP negotiations...

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MikeB4

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#1392182 22-Sep-2015 19:56

The TPP is a major change, as no details etc were presented at the last election the Government cannot claim a mandate in support of the TPP. I believe that before any agreements are signed the details should be presented to the NZ public before the next election and that election would either provide or deny a mandate to sign.

Fred99

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#1392183 22-Sep-2015 19:58

NorthernZone: Ref the opinions of medical specialists: I certainly agree that we should accord special weighting to their expert opinions in the areas of their professional expertise. But when their opinions stray into areas outside that, such as economics and international trade policy, then their opinions are surely of no greater value than any other lay person. Frankly I respect the professionalism and patriotism and experience of our trade negotiators to do their specialist job just as much as I respect the comparable expertise of oncologists or other medicos in their own areas.

Their expertise is much greater than any lay person when it come to expressing an opinion on the impact of the certainly of increased cost on their ability to prescribe medication - so please keep to topic. No, I don't expect them to express particularly valid opinion about the price of milk.

Fred99

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#1392184 22-Sep-2015 19:59

NorthernZone: Further, while it is true that some medical practitioners have expressed negative opinions about the TPP, my understanding is that the Pharmac board (ie not just employees) have expressed confidence in the TPP negotiations...

Cite please.

Read this first if you care.

sbiddle

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#1392199 22-Sep-2015 20:24

While I'm clearly not a fan of some aspects of TPP, the medical aspect seems to particularly bad for FUD.

I've heard numerous people say that NZ would lose access to generic drugs under TPP, but there is clearly no logic or basis for this because generic drugs are now the mainstay of the US market.

Extending the length of patents would stop cheaper generic drugs from hitting the market early on, but the impact of this really is a bit of an unknown.

MikeB4

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#1392208 22-Sep-2015 20:42

sbiddle: While I'm clearly not a fan of some aspects of TPP, the medical aspect seems to particularly bad for FUD.

I've heard numerous people say that NZ would lose access to generic drugs under TPP, but there is clearly no logic or basis for this because generic drugs are now the mainstay of the US market.

Extending the length of patents would stop cheaper generic drugs from hitting the market early on, but the impact of this really is a bit of an unknown.

The details of the impact on drugs is not known. However if patents last longer there be little motive for drug companies to reduce prices until competition is present thus the cost and availability will cause problems for New Zealanders.

The uncertainty of this gives cause for me and others with chronic serious illness to be concerned about the future.

sir1963

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#1392216 22-Sep-2015 20:51

sbiddle: While I'm clearly not a fan of some aspects of TPP, the medical aspect seems to particularly bad for FUD.

I've heard numerous people say that NZ would lose access to generic drugs under TPP, but there is clearly no logic or basis for this because generic drugs are now the mainstay of the US market.

Extending the length of patents would stop cheaper generic drugs from hitting the market early on, but the impact of this really is a bit of an unknown.

Just look at the start of this topic.

The Drug had been marketed for 62 YEARS and they up the price by 5000%

gzt

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#1392222 22-Sep-2015 21:03

Since this is turning into a tppa discussion let's get specific:

The big prize seems to be dairy, which I think is doing ok anyway really. I realise tppa could open up some higher value markets for the same product so there is that. But other than this what is in it for New Zealand?

Now the work has been done with other parties imho it is more likely agreements will be signed on the sidelines to realise similar benefits anyway without the tricky stuff like dairy for the USA

Tppa has been delayed multiple times. Now the US is in an election cycle I really don't see any significant concessions on dairy anyway. So I think we have to ask what are the other benifits for New Zealand.

itxtme

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#1392250 22-Sep-2015 21:36

sbiddle: While I'm clearly not a fan of some aspects of TPP, the medical aspect seems to particularly bad for FUD.

I've heard numerous people say that NZ would lose access to generic drugs under TPP, but there is clearly no logic or basis for this because generic drugs are now the mainstay of the US market.

Extending the length of patents would stop cheaper generic drugs from hitting the market early on, but the impact of this really is a bit of an unknown.

You have a valid point around generic drugs suddenly not becoming unavailable. Also you have a good argument on this specific case not being directly related to TPPA. However if you think we (any health professional) do not understand the effects of not using the latest medications in treatment you are seriously mistaken. Ondansertron is an effective anti-emetic that came off patent a few years back. Its use boomed, with the massive price drop because it was that much more effective than its predecessors. tens of thousands of Kiwis receive that drug every year now.

This is a single drug example. There are hundreds of new drugs made every year. And make no mistake here, if the cost benefit analysis indicates its a poor budgetary choice, Pharmac wont buy it. The next new drug could be the cure for ischemac heart disease. Thats 5500 people per year that die, that could have had a cure but for the sake of monetary gain for some, we have reduced the quality of life of others. (Based on what JK has indicated 5 years, thats 25,000 deaths as an example)

Our asthma rates per head of population are the 2nd highest in the developed world. If a new inhaler comes out that is ten times more effective than Salbutamol, and the price is too high (remembering this is the time drug companys make their money!!), thousands of Kiwis will have to continue using suboptimal treatments.

Surely you can see the effect even a 1 year increase in patents will have on mortality rates and quality of living. Not an unknown at all.

EDIT: I think the misunderstanding around generic drugs is more people not understanding that these will not be available for a longer period of time (patent expiry). Which in many cases mean that drug is not available to Kiwis, as it is cost prohibitive

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