airtouch for ducted heat pumps

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#2699867 29-Apr-2021 21:45

Daikin is now selling this as an option on their ducted systems. Was looking at the brochure yesterday. There is an interface unit that allows the airtouch to control the daikin indoor unit fan speeds. So if the zones turn down the fan speed reduces. This has been a common problem with zone control systems as there was no interface between the dampers and the fan.

timmmay

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#2699872 29-Apr-2021 21:59

Kickinbac: Daikin is now selling this as an option on their ducted systems. Was looking at the brochure yesterday. There is an interface unit that allows the airtouch to control the daikin indoor unit fan speeds. So if the zones turn down the fan speed reduces. This has been a common problem with zone control systems as there was no interface between the dampers and the fan.

The Daikin brochure I've seen from Dec 2020 has "Airzone VAF Zoning System". I asked two air con sales guy about it, they both said "never used it, have to talk to Daikin". After talking to Daikin they said "Daikin don't think it's very good. It can only control room temperature within 4 degrees". I asked "So, you set it to 22, the room can be 26", he said "yep".

Interested if you have a Daikin brochure that specifically mentions Airtouch. I know Airtouch has hardware that can control the Daikin indoor unit, and other brands.

Paul1977

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#2700018 30-Apr-2021 10:37

timmmay:

The Daikin brochure I've seen from Dec 2020 has "Airzone VAF Zoning System". I asked two air con sales guy about it, they both said "never used it, have to talk to Daikin". After talking to Daikin they said "Daikin don't think it's very good. It can only control room temperature within 4 degrees". I asked "So, you set it to 22, the room can be 26", he said "yep".

Interested if you have a Daikin brochure that specifically mentions Airtouch. I know Airtouch has hardware that can control the Daikin indoor unit, and other brands.

AirTouch is a 3rd party product, I would have been surprised if Daikin was advertising it directly since it would be competing with Daikin's own zoning options. Perhaps the brochure was from an installation company rather than from Daikin themselves.

Airtouch will let you set the temperatures as far apart as you want, but our installer said it really only works well if you keep it within 4 degrees. But I can't think of a reason why you'd want to set the temperature further apart than that anyway. You can of course completely turn a room off (e.g. a guest bedroom).

EDIT: I note the Daikin Airzone system adjusts fan speed based on the number of ducts open and demand, AirTouch doesn't do this and instead relies on the units own auto-fan speed (if it has one - my Mitsubishi doesn't which is a pain). Daikin Airzone has 4-step dampers, whereas Airtouch are 20-step.

timmmay

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#2700021 30-Apr-2021 10:43

Great, thanks @Paul1977. If you have thoughts on the questions in this post that'd be really useful. One of the key things I want to know is whether I need the Daikin controller easily accessible or if it's ok to stick it in the ceiling cavity.

timmmay

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#2700044 30-Apr-2021 11:38

Paul1977:

EDIT: I note the Daikin Airzone system adjusts fan speed based on the number of ducts open and demand, AirTouch doesn't do this and instead relies on the units own auto-fan speed (if it has one - my Mitsubishi doesn't which is a pain). Daikin Airzone has 4-step dampers, whereas Airtouch are 20-step.

I suspect that the heat pump thermostat is used to work out if the house is up to temperature, rather than the Airtouch thermostat. That probably means if you have the return grill in your hallway with the temperature sensor in there, and have that zone off overnight, things keep being heated until the return grill is up to temperature. Airtouch talks to the heat pump to say on, off, temperature, and adjusts the damper positions, but doesn't do anything else. Does that sound right?

I was most interested in Daikin Airzone but even the Daikin people say it's not very good yet. It's a v1 product.

Paul1977

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#2700045 30-Apr-2021 11:38

timmmay:

I'm looking at getting the Airtouch 4 with a Daikin ducted heat pump, which all going well will replace a Panasonic unit we're not happy with. We have four zones (living area, bedrooms 1 - 3), with one bedroom heating turned off unless we have guests staying.

A few questions:

Are people generally happy with the Airtouch 4 units?
Does individual room temperature control work ok? We're not expecting perfection, just pretty good.
Do you need the expensive Android tablet they supply, or can you control it completely with an app on your phone?
Do you need the heat pump manufacturers keypad / controller easily available? Blizzard says they normally put it in the ceiling if an Airtouch is installed as the Airtouch controls the heat pump. I tend to want things to work exactly as I want them to work, so I wonder if I would want this easily accessible. For example maybe it would give me access to additional settings that could be handy (quiet modes for example), additional timers, and general configuration.
I understand the timers on the Airtouch are fairly limited. Are they good enough for basic control like turning on and off a couple of times a day?

Tagging @Paul1977 because I know you're knowledgeable about this sort of thing :)

@timmmay

I'm reasonably happy with AirTouch compared to having no zones at all, but I haven't used a different zoning system so can't really compare.
Individual temp control works OK, but I question how accurate and reliable the sensors are. I calibrate them but they seem to get out of calibration fairly quickly.
I think you need the tablet. The tablet has full functionality and all the configuration options, the iOS app only has the operation functions. I'm not sure about the downloadable Android app for your phone, it may have more options than the iOS version but I don't know.
Our Mitsubishi controller is in the roof space. I understand why this was done but I can also see some advantage in having it more easily accessible, mainly because I like to see what's going on. The Mitsubishi controller reflects the fan speed and mode, but when connected to AirTouch the temperature readings and setpoints on the original controller should be ignored. AirTouch signals the Mitsubishi with current and target temperatures that don't reflect reality - but instead "trick" the unit into behaving in the way that AirTouch wants it too. It could certainly be useful to have it handy for additional timers or functions that AirTouch can't control, just remembering any temperature adjustments performed on it could have unintended results.
As of the last update AirTouch timers are still limited to simple on/off, unless you go down the IFTTT route. You might have more success by combining it with the Daikin's own built-in timers.

I've had a few issues with my ducted system, but (other than the limited inbuilt timer options) they haven't been to do with AirTouch. I do think there's a lot they could do to improve it though, such as:

More feature rich timers; where you can set mode, fan speed, per zone temperature etc all via the timer.
Smart control of fan speed depending on how many zones are open (and how open), and how close rooms are to their setpoints.
Full configuration control in the iOS app.

Paul1977

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#2700112 30-Apr-2021 13:31

timmmay:

I suspect that the heat pump thermostat is used to work out if the house is up to temperature, rather than the Airtouch thermostat. That probably means if you have the return grill in your hallway with the temperature sensor in there, and have that zone off overnight, things keep being heated until the return grill is up to temperature. Airtouch talks to the heat pump to say on, off, temperature, and adjusts the damper positions, but doesn't do anything else. Does that sound right?

I was most interested in Daikin Airzone but even the Daikin people say it's not very good yet. It's a v1 product.

Nope, if set up correctly it only ever uses the AirTouch wireless temperature sensors to determine when things are at temperature, doesn't use any temperature sensors in return grills. It adjusts each damper based on how close that zone is to it's set point, and once all zones are at their set points it should stop heating/cooling. This can of course potentially result in overheating/overcooling spills zones, but I think that's just the nature of the beast when you have zones on a system with fixed fan speeds - I personally haven't found it to be an issue.

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timmmay

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#2700121 30-Apr-2021 14:09

Thanks @Paul1977 that's really handy. Sounds like it's pretty good, not perfect, but better than nothing.

I think I'd specify the Daikin controller to be inside the house. That way I have more control, including using it as a thermostat. I find using the ceiling based thermostat it's really cold in the roof space so when the house is up to heat it still thinks it needs to heat it more sometimes.

Paul1977

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#2700188 30-Apr-2021 16:58

timmmay:

Thanks @Paul1977 that's really handy. Sounds like it's pretty good, not perfect, but better than nothing.

I think I'd specify the Daikin controller to be inside the house. That way I have more control, including using it as a thermostat. I find using the ceiling based thermostat it's really cold in the roof space so when the house is up to heat it still thinks it needs to heat it more sometimes.

@timmmay You wouldn't use the Daikin thermostat if you go with AirTouch (there may be an option to use it, but it would defeat much of the purchase of a system like AirTouch). The AirTouch sensors can be placed wherever you want since they are wireless (one per zone), normally around light switch level.

If having the Daikin controller in the house, I'd suggest having it in a different (and less obvious) location than the AirTouch controller so it doesn't get used accidentally by other household members or guests - perhaps in a cupboard or wardrobe. It shouldn't be your "go to" controller, and should only be used for functions that the AirTouch controller can't do (such as more advanced timer operations). If it can be done on the AirTouch controller, you should do it on the AirTouch controller. As I mentioned above, setting temperature changes on the Daikin controller directly may have unintended results because of how the two systems communicate - which is probably why they generally put it up in the roof space and only put the AirTouch controller in the house.

timmmay

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#2700245 30-Apr-2021 20:31

Thanks again Paul. Good to hear the Airtouch actually takes over control of whether the house is up to heat.

We don't have many visitors that would touch air conditioning controls, I see if I can think of somewhere else suitable. I may end up with it in the same location as the main controller as it's a good location and it's easy to get wires down there.

Kickinbac

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Ultimate Geek

#2700265 30-Apr-2021 21:37

timmmay:
Kickinbac: Daikin is now selling this as an option on their ducted systems. Was looking at the brochure yesterday. There is an interface unit that allows the airtouch to control the daikin indoor unit fan speeds. So if the zones turn down the fan speed reduces. This has been a common problem with zone control systems as there was no interface between the dampers and the fan.

The Daikin brochure I've seen from Dec 2020 has "Airzone VAF Zoning System". I asked two air con sales guy about it, they both said "never used it, have to talk to Daikin". After talking to Daikin they said "Daikin don't think it's very good. It can only control room temperature within 4 degrees". I asked "So, you set it to 22, the room can be 26", he said "yep".

Interested if you have a Daikin brochure that specifically mentions Airtouch. I know Airtouch has hardware that can control the Daikin indoor unit, and other brands.

Daikin brochure as requested. The airtouch does control the indoor unit fan speeds.

timmmay

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#2700310 30-Apr-2021 22:01

@Kickinbac thanks, that's the Daikin version that even their own reps say isn't very good. Air Touch is a third party company.

Kickinbac

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Ultimate Geek

#2700311 30-Apr-2021 22:15

These systems are always a compromise but should work better when the fan speed is controled. I can’t comment on whether they are good or not as have no experience with them. My Daikin rep seemed to think they were fine. The best ducted system with variable zone control is an Actron system, their best models have variable EC indoor fan and are designed for this application. I’ve done one of these and apart from some teething issues works well.

timmmay

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#2700313 30-Apr-2021 22:32

Kickinbac: These systems are always a compromise but should work better when the fan speed is controled. I can’t comment on whether they are good or not as have no experience with them. My Daikin rep seemed to think they were fine. The best ducted system with variable zone control is an Actron system, their best models have variable EC indoor fan and are designed for this application. I’ve done one of these and apart from some teething issues works well.

I've never heard of Actron. I'm going to go with the Airtouch because that's what I've found vendors offering. I guess I'll see how good it is. I don't expect it to be perfect but it should be better than nothing.

Handle9

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#2700314 30-Apr-2021 22:51

Kickinbac: These systems are always a compromise but should work better when the fan speed is controled. I can’t comment on whether they are good or not as have no experience with them. My Daikin rep seemed to think they were fine. The best ducted system with variable zone control is an Actron system, their best models have variable EC indoor fan and are designed for this application. I’ve done one of these and apart from some teething issues works well.

I'm not surprised the Actron system performed fairly well. Having an EC Fan is a big advantage of you are trying to control the volume on the fan. Having an integrated system has significant advantages.

Bolting a zone kit onto a 3rd party unit designed for CAV will never work that well.

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