airtouch for ducted heat pumps

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#2833563 16-Dec-2021 15:56

timmmay:

That sounds really useful, can you update us once you get more info please?

Our system has four zones, three bedrooms (one spare) and the lounge. Our lounge is the spill zone, because usually an extra degree or two isn't a problem. Sometimes when it's annoying me I configure the spare room as the spill zone, though it's wasteful to heat / cool a room that's not actually being used.

@timmmay there's a somewhat confusing explanation of it starting on page 24 of the latest installation manual.

Spill zone opening works on percentages, whereas a bypass can only be fully open or fully shut. The manual actually suggests (if I understand it correctly) that the best option is to install ducting directly between the supply and return, but rather than installing a bypass damper install a regular zone damper instead and set it as a hidden spill zone. That means that if you're just heating the bedroom and the damper closes to 60% the "bypass" will open to 40% (instead of straight to 100% as it would with the actual bypass kit).

It seems strange that they offer a bypass kit, and then suggest a better way using the standard zone dampers. Maybe I'm misunderstanding it, or maybe a bypass damper is just a cheaper option since it's only fully open or closed.

timmmay

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#2833678 16-Dec-2021 20:39

Paul1977:

@timmmay there's a somewhat confusing explanation of it starting on page 24 of the latest installation manual.

Spill zone opening works on percentages, whereas a bypass can only be fully open or fully shut. The manual actually suggests (if I understand it correctly) that the best option is to install ducting directly between the supply and return, but rather than installing a bypass damper install a regular zone damper instead and set it as a hidden spill zone. That means that if you're just heating the bedroom and the damper closes to 60% the "bypass" will open to 40% (instead of straight to 100% as it would with the actual bypass kit).

It seems strange that they offer a bypass kit, and then suggest a better way using the standard zone dampers. Maybe I'm misunderstanding it, or maybe a bypass damper is just a cheaper option since it's only fully open or closed.

I think "somewhat confusing" downplays how poor that explanation is! I get the general idea, bypass opens instead of spill and some of the air goes direct from output of the indoor unit back to the return, but it's not explained well. If you get it all set up let me know how it works :)

Handle9

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#2833683 16-Dec-2021 21:14

Paul1977:
timmmay:

That sounds really useful, can you update us once you get more info please?

Our system has four zones, three bedrooms (one spare) and the lounge. Our lounge is the spill zone, because usually an extra degree or two isn't a problem. Sometimes when it's annoying me I configure the spare room as the spill zone, though it's wasteful to heat / cool a room that's not actually being used.

@timmmay there's a somewhat confusing explanation of it starting on page 24 of the latest installation manual.

Spill zone opening works on percentages, whereas a bypass can only be fully open or fully shut. The manual actually suggests (if I understand it correctly) that the best option is to install ducting directly between the supply and return, but rather than installing a bypass damper install a regular zone damper instead and set it as a hidden spill zone. That means that if you're just heating the bedroom and the damper closes to 60% the "bypass" will open to 40% (instead of straight to 100% as it would with the actual bypass kit).

It seems strange that they offer a bypass kit, and then suggest a better way using the standard zone dampers. Maybe I'm misunderstanding it, or maybe a bypass damper is just a cheaper option since it's only fully open or closed.

The bypass damper is likely a drive open/ spring closed actuator. This only needs 1 relay on the controller instead of 2 for a 3 point actuator.

Paul1977

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#2833713 16-Dec-2021 23:00

timmmay:

I think "somewhat confusing" downplays how poor that explanation is! I get the general idea, bypass opens instead of spill and some of the air goes direct from output of the indoor unit back to the return, but it's not explained well. If you get it all set up let me know how it works :)

I’ve asked for pricing but based on parts cost plus labour I’d be surprised if it was less than $1000 installed (I’m expecting them to come back in the $1500-$2000 range) so I don’t think we’ll rush into anything. But I’ll let you know about pricing once I hear back.

I’m interested from the potential energy saving perspective rather than comfort, as we haven’t found the spill zones to be particularly problematic in that regard. But I don’t know how you’d even start to try to calculate any potential savings.

timmmay

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#2833721 17-Dec-2021 06:24

If you don't get much temperature change in your spill zone I would think your savings would be minimal at best.

It sounds like this system would have a piece of ducting between the indoor unit output and input, with a damper in the middle. Adding this extra ducting could disrupt the airflow in the pipe and maybe increase heat losses, so it might actually make things very slightly worse.

Paul1977

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#2834906 17-Dec-2021 11:50

timmmay:

If you don't get much temperature change in your spill zone I would think your savings would be minimal at best.

It sounds like this system would have a piece of ducting between the indoor unit output and input, with a damper in the middle. Adding this extra ducting could disrupt the airflow in the pipe and maybe increase heat losses, so it might actually make things very slightly worse.

On mine anyway I don't think they'd be space on the plenums to duct directly between plenums, so I think it would be Y joiners on one of each of the supplier and return ducts (before any other dampers, and presumably as close as possible to the unit) with new ducting and a new damper pretty much just as you describe. I assume you'd put the new damper as close to the supply side of the new duct as possible.

I don't see that it would have much impact on flow while closed if configured this way - but I'm certainly no expert. And when open you obviously want it to adjust the flow.

If it had been available, or suggested, before installation i probably would have gotten it - would be harder to justify now though.

timmmay

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#2835074 17-Dec-2021 20:20

It probably wouldn't be a huge impact, but it would disrupt the flow of the air down a smooth pipe if there's a Y join or gap for another pipe. On my first ducted heat pump they left the pipes laying about and not well managed and I quietened the system a bit moving things to make smooth bends and that kind of thing, made quite a difference. The second system they were much more careful with positioning, wide bends, that sort of thing, and it's a lot quieter.

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#2836906 22-Dec-2021 14:51

Scottishbhoy:

anyone know much about these? https://www.airtouch.net.au/airtouch/airtouch-4/

Worth the money?

Yes. We use it. Very good.

Psilan

856 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2861413 3-Feb-2022 19:08

My Airtouch4 5 zone just completed today. Pretty happy so far.

I think they accidentally messed up the temp sensors and zones though. 2 zones paired to the same sensor (so one is 'lost' as a result). One should be the tablet.

Voyager referral - https://refer.voyager.nz/68QKJ8XKK

timmmay

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#2861422 3-Feb-2022 19:47

Psilan:

My Airtouch4 5 zone just completed today. Pretty happy so far.

I think they accidentally messed up the temp sensors and zones though. 2 zones paired to the same sensor (so one is 'lost' as a result). One should be the tablet.

Are there sensors in each of the rooms? If so it's probably not difficult to reconfigure it. Personally I leave that kind of configuration to the installer and would suggest you have them back to fix it up, but I have seen where in the configuration it's set up.

Psilan

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#2861424 3-Feb-2022 19:59

Yes, one physical sensor wall plate in 4 of the zones, but no wall plate for the area where the tablet is. The tablet is used as the sensor for this room.

Yea I'm asking them back, but offered to do it as well.

Voyager referral - https://refer.voyager.nz/68QKJ8XKK

timmmay

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#2861429 3-Feb-2022 20:12

Interesting. I didn't know it could do that, mine's not acting as a sensor as it's in the hallway which isn't a zone.

I discovered recently that if the tablet isn't plugged into the wall the app doesn't work. However, preset programs do work. I really wish you could set the mode with your programs though. I'm hoping Home Assistant can do that, but it's so difficult to use I'm putting off learning it.

Psilan

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#2861432 3-Feb-2022 20:25

The tablet is an integral part of the system it seems. A few functions like turbo are restricted to the tablet.

I blocked the tablet from the Internet completely and lost no functionality, including HomeAssistant integration. But it did have a permanent 'airtouch cannot access the Internet, please reboot your router' error on the screen along the top.

By mode with programs, do you mean a schedule that sets heat or cool? Didn't realise it couldn't do that - but I thought I saw something that let me program heat or cool on a timer or something.

In the installer menu you can add the tablet to a group, then that lets you use the tablet as a sensor or secondary sensor. Not sure exactly how to do it as I don't want to change anything yet, but there are instructions on the ? under Installer > General.

Voyager referral - https://refer.voyager.nz/68QKJ8XKK

timmmay

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#2861438 3-Feb-2022 20:29

Yeah I mean it'd be good if the program could change the mode to cool / air / heat / etc. Not essential. I don't use auto because I suspect at times it wouldn't do quite what I wanted, particularly say in spring when one sunny bedroom can get up to 28 degrees and the rest of the house is 19 degrees.

Dono

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#2861792 4-Feb-2022 15:38

Psilan: Yes, one physical sensor wall plate in 4 of the zones, but no wall plate for the area where the tablet is. The tablet is used as the sensor for this room.

Yea I'm asking them back, but offered to do it as well.

I was told by the installer that while it can, they don't set it to be used as the tablet electronics/screen can increase the temperature reading, which is why they use a separate sensor if the tablet is in a zone. Not sure how much it would increase it though.

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