Gun Control discussion

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13684 posts

Uber Geek

#1880571 10-Oct-2017 20:01

Stan:

Fred99:

Stan:

Fred99:

Stan:

Its harder to see the perspective from New Zealand particularly if you live in an echo chamber of a particular political ideology, look at the trump thread for eg clearly geekzone members want to throw as much mud at trump no matter what he dose nothing positive is ever reported here (from what I have seen). Yet here we are he got elected so a large % of Americans think differently no matter how you spin it.

Trump and guns should both not be subject to partisan politics.

If you want to say something positive about Trump, feel free. The "echo chamber" you think you see is just a simple fact that on rational analysis, justifying his position on basically everything usually falls apart.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

People seem to accept that doesn't allow you to carry a rocket launcher around a shopping mall, or a hand gun into a schoolroom or aeroplane - so the "right" is "infringed" routinely, as matter of course.

This is what im talking about .

Why do a large % of Americans seemingly disagree with you? Its a different culture.

What about the large youtube (millions of subscribers) that agrees with a large amount of what trump is doing? Are people following them not rational? Are you that arrogant to assume your position is the definition of rationality?

On both issues (gun control and Trump) many Americans are profoundly ignorant of how the 95% of people on the planet - who aren't Americans - live and think.

Ignorant to what standard? Your standard of intellectualism? Because they disagree with you?

Its a very blanket statement. I can promise you that there are many people who are pro Trump and/or anti gun control that are more intelligent that you or I and thats just statistical.

How ever its off topic and it doesn't prove anything.

It's not a blanket statement. I've highlighted what you've missed.

https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2015/03/23/essay-problems-american-ignorance-world

DaveB

1139 posts

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#1880606 10-Oct-2017 20:52

Stan:

..............., look at the trump thread for eg clearly geekzone members want to throw as much mud at trump no matter what he dose nothing positive is ever reported here (from what I have seen). Yet here we are he got elected so a large % of Americans think differently no matter how you spin it.

I have to agree that there is a fair amount of "pantie wetting" and mud slinging going on in that thread. If you watch CNN US or Fox News US (not the international watered down versions), you will know what I mean. "Left whingers" shouting down "Right wringers". In other words, lots and lots of noise resulting in little communication.

But I think it is safe to assume that the Trump bashing thread does not represent the majority of Geekzone members. A vocal few perhaps who may, on the odd occasion, make a somewhat valid point for many of us to consider.

Regardless, that thread does however represent a significant number of Kiwis that have concerns about what Trump's perceived arrogance/aloofness/bravado may mean in world affairs. Sadly unless you have lived in the US, to many Kiwis there is no reason to consider why the average American would vote one way or the other. Clinton or Trump, there was only one way that thread was going to go - downhill. There are however some idiots here in NZ who just think Americans are just plain stupid. That sort of arrogance is astounding I agree, but naivety and arrogance can go hand in hand. Best to ignore, laugh and move on.

The US Gun Laws however? Now there you have a different story and I think you will find that most of the developed world will shake their heads in disgust and say thank God we don't have that problem. But there again, I suspect you have to be an American to fully comprehend and "feel" the issues.

Stan

929 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1880628 10-Oct-2017 21:24

Fred99:

Stan:

Fred99:

Stan:

Fred99:

Stan:

Its harder to see the perspective from New Zealand particularly if you live in an echo chamber of a particular political ideology, look at the trump thread for eg clearly geekzone members want to throw as much mud at trump no matter what he dose nothing positive is ever reported here (from what I have seen). Yet here we are he got elected so a large % of Americans think differently no matter how you spin it.

Trump and guns should both not be subject to partisan politics.

If you want to say something positive about Trump, feel free. The "echo chamber" you think you see is just a simple fact that on rational analysis, justifying his position on basically everything usually falls apart.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

People seem to accept that doesn't allow you to carry a rocket launcher around a shopping mall, or a hand gun into a schoolroom or aeroplane - so the "right" is "infringed" routinely, as matter of course.

This is what im talking about .

Why do a large % of Americans seemingly disagree with you? Its a different culture.

What about the large youtube (millions of subscribers) that agrees with a large amount of what trump is doing? Are people following them not rational? Are you that arrogant to assume your position is the definition of rationality?

On both issues (gun control and Trump) many Americans are profoundly ignorant of how the 95% of people on the planet - who aren't Americans - live and think.

Ignorant to what standard? Your standard of intellectualism? Because they disagree with you?

Its a very blanket statement. I can promise you that there are many people who are pro Trump and/or anti gun control that are more intelligent that you or I and thats just statistical.

How ever its off topic and it doesn't prove anything.

It's not a blanket statement. I've highlighted what you've missed.

https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2015/03/23/essay-problems-american-ignorance-world

I am not familiar with studies from the article you here but lets say the writer of the article is correct.

I am still a tad confused as to the argument you pose here?

Would you say that all people who think the second amendment should be re written are the less ignorant of the outside world?

I am not trying to straw man your argument I just don't know what it is.

Stan

929 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1880638 10-Oct-2017 21:41

DaveB:

Stan:

..............., look at the trump thread for eg clearly geekzone members want to throw as much mud at trump no matter what he dose nothing positive is ever reported here (from what I have seen). Yet here we are he got elected so a large % of Americans think differently no matter how you spin it.

I have to agree that there is a fair amount of "pantie wetting" and mud slinging going on in that thread. If you watch CNN US or Fox News US (not the international watered down versions), you will know what I mean. "Left whingers" shouting down "Right wringers". In other words, lots and lots of noise resulting in little communication.

But I think it is safe to assume that the Trump bashing thread does not represent the majority of Geekzone members. A vocal few perhaps who may, on the odd occasion, make a somewhat valid point for many of us to consider.

Regardless, that thread does however represent a significant number of Kiwis that have concerns about what Trump's perceived arrogance/aloofness/bravado may mean in world affairs. Sadly unless you have lived in the US, to many Kiwis there is no reason to consider why the average American would vote one way or the other. Clinton or Trump, there was only one way that thread was going to go - downhill. There are however some idiots here in NZ who just think Americans are just plain stupid. That sort of arrogance is astounding I agree, but naivety and arrogance can go hand in hand. Best to ignore, laugh and move on.

The US Gun Laws however? Now there you have a different story and I think you will find that most of the developed world will shake their heads in disgust and say thank God we don't have that problem. But there again, I suspect you have to be an American to fully comprehend and "feel" the issues.

I agree DaveB im glad to see that, I feel like I should jump in to defend trump at times just for some semblance of balance not that I align with him politically on too much.

I don't know if anything could have been realistically done to prevent to tragic events in Vegas there are too many guns in the US now that if they clamped down on legitimate responsible citizens anyone wanting to commit a crime or mass shooting could easily get one.

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#1880650 10-Oct-2017 22:25

Stan:

Why do a large % of Americans seemingly disagree with you? Its a different culture.

Some do, but I'm clearly only expressing a majority view (US).

So you can cut the crap out - implying that I'm "anti US" and biased by being in NZ at the moment.

Guns:

And while we're at it (in the wrong thread) Trump:

So you two chaps suggesting that I'm arguing an extreme POV - or that the threads here are hopelessly biased and not representative of public opinion, that just seems delusional.

Stan

929 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1880688 11-Oct-2017 00:23

Fred99:

Stan:

Why do a large % of Americans seemingly disagree with you? Its a different culture.

Some do, but I'm clearly only expressing a majority view (US).

So you can cut the crap out - implying that I'm "anti US" and biased by being in NZ at the moment.

Guns:

And while we're at it (in the wrong thread) Trump:

So you two chaps suggesting that I'm arguing an extreme POV - or that the threads here are hopelessly biased and not representative of public opinion, that just seems delusional.

Sorry you are all over the place my tired brain can't keep up . First you talk about how ignorant 95% of Americans are then you use poll data saying how the majority of them agree with you?

I will play along with your latest post however.

On gun control the majority is in flux between gun control and stay the same/less over the last 10 years your numbers show that.

Also if you look at the question asked its some what simplistic it could mean anything from more background checks for mental health to a total gun ban.

What do you think the USA should do in terms of gun control your haven't really articulated a point from what I can see in the thread (Correct me if im wrong). Do you think that USA citizens would vote the same way in above poll if what networkn suggested in the opening post was put forward?

Also you are saying that because trump has less than a majority approval rating and thats why you are so anti him? Fantastic why didn't you start a thread about Obama.

Using your own source:

Obama's average job approval ratings were generally similar in his first (49.1%) and second (46.7%) terms as president. -Gallup polling.

Now after all that please can you please give me a point relevant to the topic at hand. What are you advocating for change like what networkn said or slow change over time to help reduce the damage that can be inflicted by a individual (my suggestion) and what do you think is realistic (for the usa of course)?

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#1880700 11-Oct-2017 06:27

I said this (and backed it up):

On both issues (gun control and Trump) many Americans are profoundly ignorant of how the 95% of people on the planet - who aren't Americans - live and think.

Stan:

Sorry you are all over the place my tired brain can't keep up . First you talk about how ignorant 95% of Americans are then you use poll data saying how the majority of them agree with you?

I post the survey chart showing 55% of US people want stricter gun control, and you state:

Stan:

On gun control the majority is in flux between gun control and stay the same/less over the last 10 years your numbers show that.

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kingdragonfly

11205 posts

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#1880719 11-Oct-2017 07:47

Honorable posters, Stan and F99, I think you're both getting into a tight spiral.

F99, I cringe a little when I see you post "Americans are ignorant".

While it might be true, Americans don't hold exclusive membership in the ignorant. Poor and uneducated Americans are more likely to experience gun violence first hand than the rich and educated.

"Americans are ignorant" also serves to close down discussion with any Americans, before the conversation even starts.

Stan, "the majority of Americans" with a vague statement about gun control does you no service either.

The majority of Americans want more gun control, such as background checks. Making the jump to taking guns away from Americans is a straw man, the extreme that's easy to argue.

If either of you are trying to get the moderators to lock this thread, you're both doing a good job.

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#1880732 11-Oct-2017 08:12

kingdragonfly: Honorable posters, Stan and F99, I think you're both getting into a tight spiral.

F99, I cringe a little when I see you post "Americans are ignorant".

While it might be true, Americans don't hold exclusive membership in the ignorant. Poor and uneducated Americans are more likely to experience gun violence first hand than the rich and educated.

"Americans are ignorant" also serves to close down discussion with any Americans, before the conversation even starts.

Well you shouldn't cringe - go back in the thread to see that I didn't post a comment saying "Americans are ignorant".

It's a dishonest claim - and part of a strawman argument made by a couple of the other posters in this thread.

Stan

929 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1881728 11-Oct-2017 09:07

Fred99:

I said this (and backed it up):

On both issues (gun control and Trump) many Americans are profoundly ignorant of how the 95% of people on the planet - who aren't Americans - live and think.

Stan:

Sorry you are all over the place my tired brain can't keep up . First you talk about how ignorant 95% of Americans are then you use poll data saying how the majority of them agree with you?

I post the survey chart showing 55% of US people want stricter gun control, and you state:

Stan:

On gun control the majority is in flux between gun control and stay the same/less over the last 10 years your numbers show that.

Yes I state that because thats what the chart shows, you make it sound like a black and while most Americans want gun control and your chart shows that it depends on the year its not that black and white.

I never argued against that I am simply interpreting your own numbers but like I said "Also if you look at the question asked its some what simplistic it could mean anything from more background checks for mental health to a total gun ban."

I will ask you again what gun control do you think is realistic for US citizens Fred99?

kingdragonfly:

Stan, "the majority of Americans" with a vague statement about gun control does you no service either.

The majority of Americans want more gun control, such as background checks. Making the jump to taking guns away from Americans is a straw man, the extreme that's easy to argue.

The majority of Americans is not a term I used with the exception of reading data that fred99 brought forward for the purposes of rebuttal.

This is my point about gun control you CAN'T just impose strict gun regulations on the USA all at once its not possible because of there culture thats rooted in the constitution.

Stan

929 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1881730 11-Oct-2017 09:12

Fred99:

kingdragonfly: Honorable posters, Stan and F99, I think you're both getting into a tight spiral.

F99, I cringe a little when I see you post "Americans are ignorant".

While it might be true, Americans don't hold exclusive membership in the ignorant. Poor and uneducated Americans are more likely to experience gun violence first hand than the rich and educated.

"Americans are ignorant" also serves to close down discussion with any Americans, before the conversation even starts.

Well you shouldn't cringe - go back in the thread to see that I didn't post a comment saying "Americans are ignorant".

It's a dishonest claim - and part of a strawman argument made by a couple of the other posters in this thread.

I personally only brought it forward because of the article you posted thats title was "American Ignorance"

The subtext reading "The public is shockingly unaware of the world, and educators and civic leaders need to confront this problem, writes Sanford J. Ungar"

To me that was an argument for american ignorance if not perhaps you would be kind enough to correct me.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#1881738 11-Oct-2017 09:35

Sweeping generalisations are always inaccurate but I lived in America for many years and I would definitely agree that on the whole, Americans are shockingly ignorant compared to almost any other place in the world, certainly any other place I have lived. Because it is so big, and relatively homogeneous (yes, it is in the ways that matter), America tends towards insularity. In general, people there are very inward-looking and not particularly interested in, or knowledgeable about, the rest of the world. This is reflected by their domestic news media, which just regurgitate what people already think and want to hear. There are exceptions, of such, such as the generally excellent PBS news, but this only appeals to a tiny minority.

This is my impression based on many years of actual experience living amongst Americans. If anyone wants links, look them up yourselves. I am simply reporting my subjective experience.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Pumpedd

1759 posts

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#1881744 11-Oct-2017 09:44

Rikkitic:

Sweeping generalisations are always inaccurate but I lived in America for many years and I would definitely agree that on the whole, Americans are shockingly ignorant compared to almost any other place in the world, certainly any other place I have lived. Because it is so big, and relatively homogeneous (yes, it is in the ways that matter), America tends towards insularity. In general, people there are very inward-looking and not particularly interested in, or knowledgeable about, the rest of the world. This is reflected by their domestic news media, which just regurgitate what people already think and want to hear. There are exceptions, of such, such as the generally excellent PBS news, but this only appeals to a tiny minority.

This is my impression based on many years of actual experience living amongst Americans. If anyone wants links, look them up yourselves. I am simply reporting my subjective experience.

I will get flamed for saying this, but I have lived in NZ for a lot of years and I have discovered there are a LOT of ignorant NZers as well. Shock horror!!

I tried to run a few over yesterday on Waterloo Quay that were lying in the middle of the road with a maori flag...WTF. Sure its fine to protest but why bring Wellington to its knees over what....

Also in NZ surprise surprise there are a minority of people that insist on forcing their views down our throats cause the majority is always wrong. Guess I am guilty of that at times.

Sometimes we all need to take a look in the mirror to see who is being ignorant.

I know and have worked with a lot of Americans and they are fine people.

MikeB4

18435 posts

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#1881770 11-Oct-2017 09:57

Pumpedd:

Rikkitic:

Sweeping generalisations are always inaccurate but I lived in America for many years and I would definitely agree that on the whole, Americans are shockingly ignorant compared to almost any other place in the world, certainly any other place I have lived. Because it is so big, and relatively homogeneous (yes, it is in the ways that matter), America tends towards insularity. In general, people there are very inward-looking and not particularly interested in, or knowledgeable about, the rest of the world. This is reflected by their domestic news media, which just regurgitate what people already think and want to hear. There are exceptions, of such, such as the generally excellent PBS news, but this only appeals to a tiny minority.

This is my impression based on many years of actual experience living amongst Americans. If anyone wants links, look them up yourselves. I am simply reporting my subjective experience.

I will get flamed for saying this, but I have lived in NZ for a lot of years and I have discovered there are a LOT of ignorant NZers as well. Shock horror!!

I tried to run a few over yesterday on Waterloo Quay that were lying in the middle of the road with a maori flag...WTF. Sure its fine to protest but why bring Wellington to its knees over what....

Also in NZ surprise surprise there are a minority of people that insist on forcing their views down our throats cause the majority is always wrong. Guess I am guilty of that at times.

Sometimes we all need to take a look in the mirror to see who is being ignorant.

I know and have worked with a lot of Americans and they are fine people.

Folks have a right to protest and protest should be encouraged as it is a key element of democracy, however those protestors went too far and probably lost support because of it. Thankfully family members were able to attend the conference safely. What I don't understand from your post is what has the Tino Rangatiratanga Flag have to do with it?

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#1881821 11-Oct-2017 10:56

Rikkitic:

Sweeping generalisations are always inaccurate but I lived in America for many years and I would definitely agree that on the whole, Americans are shockingly ignorant compared to almost any other place in the world, certainly any other place I have lived. Because it is so big, and relatively homogeneous (yes, it is in the ways that matter), America tends towards insularity. In general, people there are very inward-looking and not particularly interested in, or knowledgeable about, the rest of the world. This is reflected by their domestic news media, which just regurgitate what people already think and want to hear. There are exceptions, of such, such as the generally excellent PBS news, but this only appeals to a tiny minority.

This is my impression based on many years of actual experience living amongst Americans. If anyone wants links, look them up yourselves. I am simply reporting my subjective experience.

Not sure about that "homogenous" bit.
My lasting impression after visiting at least 40 states is that the US is incredibly diverse.

One day I was eating catfish and drinking beer with locals on the banks of the Mississippi in Missouri - who were boasting about methods they used to discourage n*ggers from settling nearby, another day I'm mingling with and talking to reporters from WP and NYT at a formal function at the UN.

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